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Thread: About Intuition

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Maybe not, but more than a few percent can.
    When the world population exceeds 6 Billion people, a few percent appears to be a large number of Ns.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    I just honestly think it's [Ne] often defined in a way that makes it indistinguishable from the other functions.
    I whole-heartedly agree; hence the confusion for many.

  3. #103
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Yes, ENFPfer, thank you! That is exactly how I feel; I appreciate seeing my sentiments formulated so succinctly.

    Lest we all forget, there is a primary, auxiliary, tertiary, and inferior function. If I am indeed an ISFP, this would mean that my tertiary function is Ni. Jung scholar Lenore Thomson believes we often rely on our first and third function, which would be for me Fi+Ni. The way that I grow and actually live up to my talents, however, is by using Se to support my Fi. I have found throughout my life this to be most definitely true. When I use Fi+Ni and remove the Se reality check, I definitely reside in this insular fantasy world, resplendent with magical thinking and hidden meanings which do not exist. Se grounds me and encourages me to engage my feelings/thoughts/ideas with the outside world- how things really are. This doesn't mean I stop using my Ni; it means my Ni reaches better conclusions when my Se perceptions are taken into account.


    Sorry to ramble and somewhat deviate from the primary discussion, but I'm trying to express how intuition comes into play for a sensor.
    Exactly how I understand it as well. Glad it helped!
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  4. #104
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    I absolutely believe that Ne is a valuable function and that many abilities come easily to Ne-doms that are more challenging for Ss (and obviously the reverse). I just honestly think it's often defined in a way that makes it indistinguishable from the other functions.
    Of course it is indistinguishable because it works in tandem with all the other functions. Every single person senses, intuits, feels and thinks. Everyone. You merely have a preference as to which function you prefer to live in. And you have a preference as to whether you introvert or extrovert that function. A smaller percent of the population prefers to live in their N. Most likely because it's simply not practical to do so. But even those that live in it can't separate it out from the others - you either use it well or you use it poorly, but everyone certainly uses it.

    I could only really compare Se to Ne, since they are in the same realm (extroverted perceiving). I would say that Se follows physical impulses while Ne follows mental ones. I think an Se dom would follow a path to see where it goes whereas an Ne dom is more likely to follow and entertain a train of thought. And because the Ne dom spends lots of time thinking about thoughts that will have no bearing on their current reality, they are just simply more adept at finding hidden meanings (such as the poetry example given earlier), or they will be quicker at making connections. And because Se doms spend more time in thrill-seeking behavior (as an example) they will simply be more adept at avoiding injury than an Ne dom, who has less of a concept of physical space, or they will be more adept at orienting themselves in a new city. It's really just 2 sides of the same coin and I don't know why it's buried in mystique.

    EDIT - by the same token, Si is fact checking against things you already know, while Ni is predicting future outcomes. Both functions are based on seeing patterns, but their focus is different - the past vs the future. It is definitely not psychic.

  5. #105
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Of course it is indistinguishable because it works in tandem with all the other functions. Every single person senses, intuits, feels and thinks. Everyone. You merely have a preference as to which function you prefer to live in. And you have a preference as to whether you introvert or extrovert that function. A smaller percent of the population prefers to live in their N. Most likely because it's simply not practical to do so. But even those that live in it can't separate it out from the others - you either use it well or you use it poorly, but everyone certainly uses it.

    I could only really compare Se to Ne, since they are in the same realm (extroverted perceiving). I would say that Se follows physical impulses while Ne follows mental ones. I think an Se dom would follow a path to see where it goes whereas an Ne dom is more likely to follow and entertain a train of thought. And because the Ne dom spends lots of time thinking about thoughts that will have no bearing on their current reality, they are just simply more adept at finding hidden meanings (such as the poetry example given earlier). And because Se doms spend more time in thril-seeking behavior (as an example) they will simply be more adept at avoiding injury than an Ne dom, who has less of a concept of physical space. It's really just 2 sides of the same coin and I don't know why it's buried in mystique.
    Absowutely. Ni and Si are much more interesting. They seem like fabrications of the mind to me, rather than cognative functions fabricating the mind. Feels all backwards-ish.

    Or maybe that's just my Ti playing tricks on me. Irony. :P
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #106
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Absowutely. Ni and Si are much more interesting. They seem like fabrications of the mind to me, rather than cognative functions fabricating the mind. Feels all backwards-ish.

    Or maybe that's just my Ti playing tricks on me. Irony. :P
    Hahaha, I know! Si and Ni are the hardest functions, conceptually, for me to grasp. I wish I could use them well.

  7. #107
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    I'm seriously not trying to be difficult, and I'm sure there's just something I'm missing here, but that doesn't sound any different than the way I used to write papers and study for tests (when I was in school). But, I don't have any kind of magical thinking - just the normal ability to draw connections between concepts and to spot patterns.

    I apologize in advance for this long post, but I'm really trying to understand this, and wanted to explain where I'm coming from, and what my stumbling block is.

    I'll try to describe how I think Si is often confused with Ne or Ni. Si is often pejoratively described as being judgmental, and even inclined to bigotry. While I definitely take exception to the bigoted label, I do think it's true that Si develops stereotypes, and stereotypes - when used by a small-minded person - can form false rationales for bigotry.

    Stereotyping isn't all bad though - it's used in very smart ways by advertisers, politicians, lawyers, sociologists, etc... It's being able to instantly know (or have a pretty good idea) of which people are likely to buy a certain product, vote for a certain candidate, or which juror will vote to acquit. That requires quick associations that anyone can make: country singers probably shouldn't advertise in Vegan restaurants, or (for common political wisdom,) Subarus are for Democrats. These things are done by all people, all the time, but are probably especially common to people who use Si, because as a function it seeks to categorize the environment.

    But in other contexts, that same functional ability is mistaken for Ne (because it usually accurately predicts a pattern based on unrelated information, and it picks up on coming trends very easily) or even Ni (because when someone is really good at it, it can seem like mindreading).

    I've heard a lot of people suggest that in Si-doms, those associations are based on building-block connections, as though there's a conscious chain of data that leads from one fact to another. If those connections exist, they certainly aren't conscious. I've also heard people suggest that it's based on personal experience. Maybe, but it constructs a grid that goes far beyond those experiences.

    I've been able to draw the distinction between the use of Si and Ne by drawing the line at reality and imagination. The Si function is extremely good at predicting, but less good at creating. To put it another way, I'd probably be pretty good at playing the stock market (if I, you know, had both the desire and the money), but I'd be pretty bad at designing a new product from scratch. Second, the connections made by Si-doms are all between real-world factors: comparing one historical era in one nation to a different era in a different nation; describing a geopolitical alliance using a high school as a metaphor, etc... My sense is that the associations made by a Ne-dom would be impossible to explain - like comparing a farm animal to a musical note. That's a rare gift and would account for Ns making up only a few percent of the population.

    Back to the Stewart example. Yes, he makes connections quickly and uses those connections to toy with his guests. But those connections are reality based and functionally no different than the way I interpret and use information. Compare that to Colbert who plays around in the realm of the fantastical (changing facts on wikipedia, creating his own comic book character...) To me, that's a pretty good distinction between a highly intelligent and talented Sensor and a highly intelligent and talented Intuit.

    This is why I get confused when Ne is described as proficiency in comprehending concepts/theories or making associations between disciplines (both of which seem perfectly natural for Si).

    I don't have as detailed an analysis for Se-doms, but it seems like brainheart summarized it pretty well with the tennis analogy. Se makes extremely quick associations, but when those associations are used in a non-physical, more intellectual context the exact same function is usually lumped in with Ne.

    I absolutely believe that Ne is a valuable function and that many abilities come easily to Ne-doms that are more challenging for Ss (and obviously the reverse). I just honestly think it's often defined in a way that makes it indistinguishable from the other functions.
    I agree with almost everything here, except the Stewart thing and only because I'm not familiar enough with his show to have an opinion (and besides, that discussion is effectively typing only typing him and his team of writers collectively, not him individually). Just a few points:

    Where does this 'few percent' statistic come from? I've heard estimates from 50/50 to 75/25, but no ratio that wide before.

    I don't think that example is of something that would be a 'rare gift', and the connection I thought of, can be explained: both a musical note and a farm animal have been produced (likely en masse for financial gain and to poor standards) by humans and are destined to be destroyed from one point of view and transformed from another, in the process of pleasing human senses. The animal will be changed into a different set of chemicals when digested, and its component parts become part of that human. The note will change from a sound wave into a series of electro-chemical reactions on the journey to the correct part of the brain, and will become part of that human by becoming a part of that human's experience and memory.

    It could conceivably be rare to have such a strong N preference that you'd spontaneously make such connections after merely seeing a pig and hearing a note, how are we to know, but it's surely not rare to be able to when prompted and after a minute's thought. I'd have noticed by now if most people I knew were incapable of abstract thought. It's just that most people don't have any reason to make connections that abstract very often so at first the prospect could sound daunting.

    I don't see iNtuition as magical, mystical or unexplainable. The thought of not being able to understand your own perceptions is quite scary to me, and I'd want nothing to do with a form of perception like that. I think what bothers me about some of this thread (and other places online) is how kooky it's made to sound. You're correct that it sounds humdrum and like something everybody uses. That doesn't mean you've misunderstood the definitions, it means that it's humdrum and everybody uses it.

  8. #108
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    Where does this 'few percent' statistic come from? I've heard estimates from 50/50 to 75/25, but no ratio that wide before.
    Keirsey puts the percentage of Ss at 85 - 90%, and most people on these boards seem to concur. Of the remaining 10 - 15%, I figure Ne is slightly more common than Ni - so, roughly 7% Ne, and 5% Ni. I have no problem believing that it's much higher than that, and what you write makes a lot of sense. I'm just going by the percentages I've heard tossed around.

    I don't think that example is of something that would be a 'rare gift', and the connection I thought of, can be explained: both a musical note and a farm animal have been produced (likely en masse for financial gain and to poor standards) by humans and are destined to be destroyed from one point of view and transformed from another, in the process of pleasing human senses. The animal will be changed into a different set of chemicals when digested, and its component parts become part of that human. The note will change from a sound wave into a series of electro-chemical reactions on the journey to the correct part of the brain, and will become part of that human by becoming a part of that human's experience and memory.

    It could conceivably be rare to have such a strong N preference that you'd spontaneously make such connections after merely seeing a pig and hearing a note, how are we to know, but it's surely not rare to be able to when prompted and after a minute's thought. I'd have noticed by now if most people I knew were incapable of abstract thought. It's just that most people don't have any reason to make connections that abstract very often so at first the prospect could sound daunting.
    No argument there.

    I don't see iNtuition as magical, mystical or unexplainable. The thought of not being able to understand your own perceptions is quite scary to me, and I'd want nothing to do with a form of perception like that. I think what bothers me about some of this thread (and other places online) is how kooky it's made to sound. You're correct that it sounds humdrum and like something everybody uses. That doesn't mean you've misunderstood the definitions, it means that it's humdrum and everybody uses it.
    Is there any way to distinguish the kinds of connections and predictions made by Si (like the ones I described in the other post) and the kinds of connections and predictions made by Ne?

  9. #109
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Is there any way to distinguish the kinds of connections and predictions made by Si (like the ones I described in the other post) and the kinds of connections and predictions made by Ne?
    Si is incredibly detailed and Ne wants the big picture. My INTP bf operates in Ti-Si mode most of the time and I get impatient with all the details. There is a huge difference in the way we speak. I fluctuate between Ne-Fe mode and Ne-Ti mode, but Si rarely fits in anywhere. I have absolutely no patience for all the details - I can't stress that enough. It drives me quite insane, in fact. I simply don't care.

    You talked of Si giving you the ability of being a possible stock market maverick... Ne can look at trends overall and possibly predict which way the wind will blow, but it will not systematically analyze and store data and compare it to present data to predict the outcome. The details do not matter. I suspect that my ex was Si dominant, as he and his father actually had this huge graph that they added data to every day for years (years!!) to play the market with. I couldn't fathom such a thing.

    My Ne is at it's best when exploring possibilities, not simply making connections. You can come to me with a problem I can instantly ramble off a million and one things that could happen if you follow this path and a million other things that can happen if you follow another. This is why I was very good in my first career in software QA. I literally take the thing we are speaking about and hold it up in a 3D way in my mind and rapidly poke at it from every angle imaginable. It usually stuns people and I often hear "wow, I never thought of that" a lot. I just have the ability to see the big picture, from all angles, very quickly. I can spot a weak spot a mile away. Remembering the past events with detail and imagining a theoretical model before it's built are 2 entirely different things.

    Coupled with Ti, this allows me assess exactly what someone means from the words they choose and I can instantly throw you back something you know to be absolutely true and make you doubt yourself - I know this seems mundane, but it's really not. It is no coincidence that the legal profession is filled with teflon-sprayed ENTPs. I can really excel and twist the concept in someone's words around and leaving them (and their belief system) in a pile of shambles. This is not something I am explaining with pride, I am explaining it so you can get a better idea of how Si is very different from Ne.

    Ne statements (according to wikisocion) tend to sound more like "just out of curiosity...", "so, what you're really saying is...", "what would happen if...", "in the long run, it makes more sense to..." and words that are conditional in nature.

    Si statements (from the same source): "once I get settled...", "I feel comfortable doing...", "compared to last time...", and words that involve a lot of texture.

  10. #110
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Is there any way to distinguish the kinds of connections and predictions made by Si (like the ones I described in the other post) and the kinds of connections and predictions made by Ne?
    Well, the best thing I can come up with on the fly - re: climate change

    Nuclear winter is a very Si predictive concept. Less sunlight = colder temperatures. We know this, and have known this forever, because we've all gone through countless summers and winters. We know that throwing dust up in the atmosphere blocks sunlight, because we've seen that happen since the dawn of industrialization, not to mention volcanic events like the "Year Without a Summer" of 1816. The pattern there is that because massive numbers of nuclear explosions would throw a ton of dust up into the atmosphere, it would cause global temperatures to plummet.

    The greenhouse effect is more of an Ne prediction. There had been no past information to demonstrate that higher levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere contributed to higher global temperatures, however, we knew that one of the molecular properties of CO2 was to reflect solar radiation back toward the ground, and that consequently, higher levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide (among other gases) would possibly lead to an increased average global temperature, even if the effects weren't immediately perceptible.

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