User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 21

  1. #1
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Posts
    446

    Default Why is J/P more significant for Sensors than for iNTuitors?

    Under the Temperament system, preferred Judgement is deemed the most important thing to know about N types. For Ss, it's the direction of the perceiving function. Why? What was the original reason for this and do you agree with it? Is Se supposed to be more different from Si than Ne is from Ni? Or are they equally different, but for some reason the direction of Sensing has more of an effect on apparent behaviour than the direction of iNtuiting does? Or more of an effect on another specific thing? Or is there another reason? Presumably a reason was provided at the time, but I've never seen it.

  2. #2
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,004

    Default

    The different organization attitudes are more noticeable in the sensors, and the different judgment attitudes are more noticeable in the intuitives. I'd say that since intuition is mainly a mental thing, that the preferred judgment would go right along with that. And since sensing is based externally, it would be noticeable if a sensor would prefer to be mentally organized (P), or outwardly organized (J).
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  3. #3
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Posts
    446

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    The different organization attitudes are more noticeable in the sensors, and the different judgment attitudes are more noticeable in the intuitives. I'd say that since intuition is mainly a mental thing, that the preferred judgment would go right along with that. And since sensing is based externally, it would be noticeable if a sensor would prefer to be mentally organized (P), or outwardly organized (J).
    Your first sentence does make sense and seems to reflect my experience, but I'm not it can be explained by S being inherently more external than N. Is Ne really more internal than Si?

    Abstract things aren't produced by the brain, they're just as much 'out there' to be noticed as concrete things are, and the internal perceptions of those concrete things are just as much produced by the brain and experienced internally as the perceptions of abstract things are.

    It's the behavioural responses to the perceptions that we can see, but the perception itself is always internal and we only know what perception someone is acting on via communication and projection, both of which can give us false information, and can never fully reproduce that internal perception for us.

    I don't think N types less often act on or communicate about their perceptions, so we shouldn't be less able to make educated guesses about which Perceiving function they're using based on their actions and words, should we? Mind you, I can see that we ARE less able to in general, I just don't see why.

  4. #4
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,004

    Default

    The types are generally sorted as NF, NT, SP, and SJ because of Keirsey and his theory. It makes perfect sense within his theory.

    And everything sensing related is based on the real world, it's based on reality. Intuition seems mental in nature, based on the possibilities etc, which is a mental thing. Sensing functions work within what's tangible, intuitive functions work within what isn't reality (they look to the future or to the possibilities generally). And to clarify both perception styles come from what people perceive is reality.

    My thoughts on the matter were stated above basically. Judgments are mainly an internal thing, and since intuition is also mainly based mentally, they go hand in hand. That's probably what Keirsey thought. And same goes with sensing and J/P.

    Ne is external. Pe extrapolates the situation at hand based on the sensing and intuiting attitude, reaching outward rather than working within what one knows like Pi does. Ne has a mental base.
    Si is internal and is outwardly based. It's based internally because of the nature of Pi, to reference the system of information within you. It's outwardly based (keyword BASE here) because it's root is reality (to the person).

    NP, NJ, SP, and SJ would most definitely work. Hell, I even use these for myself along with NT, NF, SF, and ST and all of the other possible combinations to analyze a type. But since it's based in Keirsey's theory, it's the most widely known separation of types. Thus that's what we use generally.

    Hopefully that made sense to you.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  5. #5
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,441

    Default

    Perhaps most people did not pick up, that the Interaction Styles are to an extent the mirrors of temperament. So while J/P does not figure for N's in temperament, it does in the Interaction Styles. It basically switches with T/F. T/F is not significant for Sensors in temperament, but they are for N's, but not in Interaction Styles for N's.
    This is from two different frameworks (temperament, type) with their own symmetries being "crossed" over each other.

    The way I try to explain it, on what is now my "long" page on the correlations: Temperament Part 2: Evolving the APS-MBTI Correlation
    [translated from the FIRO-APS lingo to the corresponding temperament/Interaction Style concepts]:

    ...the area of information gathering ("perception"), by which we then gain the knowledge of the world around us; allowing us to make the decisions to survive with; would fall into the [conative] area. A person's wanting or not wanting of "interaction" in that area [which ties to preferring structures or motives and doing what's right vs what works] would be indirectly tied to his preference for perception. If his perception is concrete; and then if it is also inward-oriented, he won't want any interaction in [conation], from [individual people]. He won't want to control [i.e. pragmatic] or be controlled by others. [but will trust structures such as organizations instead] If his perception is outward instead, then he will swing back and forth between controlling [pragmatism] and being controlled [by from focusing on people's motives in order to work with them] based on the concrete input he is receiving from the outside world. For people whose preference is intuition, the "self preservation" [conative] temperament will not be determined by whether the perception is inward or outward. That is too "concrete", where they are abstract. (That will instead determine their social orientation [Interaction Style]). So rather, it will be the judging function the perception is paired with that determines the [conative] behavior. Thinking (Tough mindedness) will [be pragmatic, but structure focused], and Feeling (Friendliness) will [be cooperative and motive focused].
    As I believe Interaction Style is as significant as [Keirsey'an] temperament, the J/P (and T/F) DO have the same level of significance!
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  6. #6
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,004

    Default

    ^Most people don't even know what the interaction styles are.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  7. #7
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Posts
    446

    Default

    Thanks Eric, I didn't know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Hopefully that made sense to you.
    Yeah, I think I know what you're saying now. Basically, F and T are more relevant to N, and J and P are more relevant to S, because the directions of the Perceiving and Judging functions play a bigger role in how people address realities, which are the bigger priorities for S types, whereas F and T have more influence over how people address non-realities, which are the bigger priorities for N types. Is that what you mean?

    I think what's been confusing me is the logical conclusion from this that a dom-Je is supposed to not be thinking about reality most of the time if they're an N, when Je is all about working with reality. But of course the Je relationship with reality is not like Perceiving functions' relationship with reality. There's a difference between looking to something for work materials (Je) and looking to it for design (S and N). So there are two distinct spectra of focus on the real and practical:


    S-----------------N
    Practical > Non-practical
    Je----------------Ji


    Perhaps Perceiving is just deemed the best starting place from where to construct the model of someone's personality. Makes sense. So from there, because Sensors perceive first the practical, knowing how they approach practicalities (direction of the S) is the next most important thing. Because iNtuitors perceive first the non-practical, although direction affects how they approach practicalities in the same way, it doesn't matter as much because their personality starts at the point of perception of the non-practical.

    I had better be getting close. I'll be massaging my brain until the knots loosen...

  8. #8
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,004

    Default

    That last paragraph is basically a good way of looking at it. And remember it's based off of Keirsey.

    The rest sounds like gibberish. But it sounds somewhat intelligent. You sound like you're talking to get more clarity like Ne users typically do. But anyways-

    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    Yeah, I think I know what you're saying now. Basically, F and T are more relevant to N, and J and P are more relevant to S, because the directions of the Perceiving and Judging functions play a bigger role in how people address realities, which are the bigger priorities for S types, whereas F and T have more influence over how people address non-realities, which are the bigger priorities for N types. Is that what you mean?
    F and T are how people address reality, as judging functions.

    I think what's been confusing me is the logical conclusion from this that a dom-Je is supposed to not be thinking about reality most of the time if they're an N, when Je is all about working with reality. But of course the Je relationship with reality is not like Perceiving functions' relationship with reality. There's a difference between looking to something for work materials (Je) and looking to it for design (S and N). So there are two distinct spectra of focus on the real and practical:


    S-----------------N
    Practical > Non-practical
    Je----------------Ji
    First paragraph- How did you come to that conclusion about Je doms? Also, replace the word "reality" with "the concrete" in your entire post and it's a bit better. Then you've got it right that Je works with reality (like all judging functions are).

    And this chart doesn't really seem right, what makes you think that that's how it goes?
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  9. #9
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    It's not.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    136

    Default

    Although it bothers me that sensors are grouped one way and intuitives another, and although Black Cat's explanation seems reasonable, I don't think Keirsey conceived of the functions as separate entities in that way. Isabel Myers liked to break down all the different functions and combine them in different ways to see what character traits came up (ie how are all EP's alike or what are the best jobs for IF's) but I think Keirsey was more holistic in his approach. He took the 16 individual type descriptions and organized the descriptions themselves in the ancient tradition of the four humors (he traces variations on this pasttime from Galen up to the early 20tth century). Keirsey reports that Myers confirmed his four groups, but then, as I said before, Myers liked to divide the functions all sorts of different ways to see what she could come up with. Keirsey never looks at type based on individual functions as Myers does, his explanation being that Jung and Myers were interested in what occurs internally and he confined his investigations to what he could observe about personality externally. So although the question of how the functions match up under Keirsey's system is an interesting one, I don't think that Keirsey ever conceived of it that way. In fact, he has a really interesting way of breaking things down based on abstract and concrete use of language and utilitarian and cooperative use of tools that has nothing whatsoever to do with Myers-Briggs.

Similar Threads

  1. Why is INTJ a recommended pairing for ENFP but not INFP?
    By great_bay in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: 02-02-2017, 05:03 PM
  2. Why is our universe fine-tuned for life?
    By phobik in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 01-07-2016, 09:00 PM
  3. Sympathy vs Empathy. Why is empathy more highly regarded?
    By fecaleagle in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 06-02-2015, 11:13 AM
  4. [NT] Why is it so hard for Me to stop focusing on Myself?
    By The Ü™ in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 72
    Last Post: 07-15-2011, 06:06 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO