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  1. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Fallicious thinking, but rest assured Ygolo, it was not taken as an insult. But you are incorrect. Parroting is never normal & acceptable in a rational debate because it indicates thoughtless regurgitation of others' ideas. However, as soon as you endorse an idea and apply it to your life it becomes yours. The decisions you make are yours; diverting moral responsibility for your decisions to someone else (eg Ms Myers & Ms Briggs) does not mean the onus is on these (now deceased) ladies but fall twofold on you: firstly for making a decision based on someone else's advice; secondly, for choosing a poor advisor.

    I use MBTI as an example, but extend this how you please.
    I find this point of view very out of touch. Of course, one needs to rely on other people's information in a debate. Use of this sort of information does not indicate toughtlessness--only an appropriate amount of humility.

    I have already told you about how I find the use of Myers-Briggs and related theory. In application, I first, aim to do no harm. I have also told you that I have used it myself to good effect, and know of others wh have done the same.

    We are talking about psychology here, not a hard science. Without this or Freud, or something similar, we'd have NO theory of mind to make use of.

    If you go by what is proven or not, then the notion of "presonality" itself (even with no theory attached) is something that you cannot find aqqequate support no aqqeduate evidence against.

    The FFM has very similar types of issues. It's validity measures are higher, but they corellate nonetheless with the Myers-Briggs scales.


    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Correct. Doesn't the inconclusive bit bother you?
    No. Because this is psychology. What isn't inconlcusive?


    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Even if they were not in it for the money, this in no way deminished my point but merely includes the possibility, among others, that they are deluded or wishful thinkers. Churches and mosques are full of such individuals.
    This is the point where you cross the line. Certainly, disagreeing with the validity of something is something I am fine with. The comparison to a "cult" is quite a different thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    The question was meant generally and - forgive me - was not meant literally. I suppose if my Miracle Gro works then I can keep up the supply.
    I am saying I have applied the theories to good effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    It's fun. I enjoy the cut and thrust of debate... and I expect you do, too! But I might be wrong.
    It is not fun for me, and I hardly consider this a debate. Other than for Jaguar, all I have seen is hypoerbole. There are no points being made that are supported with evidence.

    No, this is not a debate, but simply cat-calls and word-sniping from the sidelines.

    There is one group trying to play a game they enjoy...the discussion of Myers-Briggs related topics, and another group simply taking snipes and make snide or hyperbolic interjections from the sidelines.

    That's the way I see it.

    If it is relatively irrelevant to you, then please let us have our own fun discussing Myers-Briggs.

    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    More of the same Ygolo. I really am a bit disappointed in you. What's Victor to do - go around every Psychology Department in the world a request written submissions? Quite clearly Victor is being figurative and he illustrates a perfectly reasonable objection to MBTI: which is if it is so valid, why aren't psychologists coming out in droves to endorse it. You bandied a couple of names, but even if we were to discover a significant number of these fellows, it would be the quality of the forthcoming debate and any research that would be decisive - not the fact that a couple of guys in white suits endorse it. The onus is on the propounder to validate assertions; deflecting the onus is a cheap trick.

    This is called card-stacking.
    So Victor WAS using hypoerbole, then. I was simply pointing out that the statement was hyperbolic.

    Generally speaking, there are very few things that psychologists come out in droves to endorse. They do seem to go through fads, and MBTI was one of them.

    Also, Victor is quite wrong, if he thinks that Myers-Briggs is not being used in reasearch.

    Now, as I've stated before, I believe there has been more than enough of this back-and-forth on something we clearly need to simply "agree to disagree" on.

    I think this is bad precedent since any thread tring to discuss Myers-Briggs will go down this same tired track of some people charging it's a cult, and others taking the other point of view.

    I ask the mods if they can move all such posts to an "Is Myers-Briggs a cult?" thread. I see no point in rehashing this over an over again.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  2. #72
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This is jargon. It is not plain English.

    But all cults use jargon to conceal their intent.

    And MBTI is no exception.
    It's terminology, and all systems of thought have terminology (with operational definitions) that people not versed in it will think is not "plain English". Then, they're either interested, and then learn the terms, or just move on to something else.

    (I don't think you ever answered people's questions of what this concealed cultic "intent" is).
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  3. #73
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bananatrombones
    Correct. Doesn't the inconclusive bit bother you?
    Originally Posted by Ygolo
    No. Because this is psychology. What isn't inconlcusive?
    Apologies. I quoted you incorrectly - you said "largely inconclusive". Doesn't the "largely inconclusive" bit bother you, then? By "largely" I take you to mean the subtle difference between a tiny bit, a big bit, a bigger bit and a large bit, ie the top of your fictional quality scale. Let's just say it's not a "bit inconclusive"; let's say it's largely inconclusive.


    Originally Posted by bananatrombones
    Even if they were not in it for the money, this in no way deminished my point but merely includes the possibility, among others, that they are deluded or wishful thinkers. Churches and mosques are full of such individuals.
    Originally Posted by Ygolo
    This is the point where you cross the line. Certainly, disagreeing with the validity of something is something I am fine with. The comparison to a "cult" is quite a different thing.
    Well now the Rubicon has been crossed, I might as well continue to Rome!

    FWIW I have never stated MBTI was a cult; although it has unarguably cult-like elements. But you could say that about the Girl Guides. Touchy, are we?

    So. Ygolo. Why are you so scared that you might be drawn to cult-like institutions? Your obvious anger is evident in your defensive, badly-spelled response. Just saying.

    Maybe, like a boy scout or a girl guide, there's a void somewhere waiting to be filled.

    Do you get out much?

    I am saying I have applied the theories to good effect.
    Yes. Good. So have I. But the evidence I have observed can never be anything other than anecdotal. Years ago in Blackpool, Madame Petulengro correctly predicted my fortune. Well done, but I still have my doubts about the art of the crystal ball...


    Originally Posted by bananatrombones
    It's fun. I enjoy the cut and thrust of debate... and I expect you do, too! But I might be wrong.
    Originally Posted by Ygolo
    It is not fun for me, and I hardly consider this a debate. Other than for Jaguar, all I have seen is hypoerbole. There are no points being made that are supported with evidence.

    No, this is not a debate, but simply cat-calls and word-sniping from the sidelines.
    Not fun? How can this be? Come, come Ygolo, you love it. I know I do!

    What would you like, buddy, nods of agreement all round? Debates just don't work like that. It's not a "debate" in your sense (on whatever planet that might be) but it is on my planet. Your assumptions are challenged and you scream:

    I ask the mods if they can move all such posts to an "Is Myers-Briggs a cult?" thread. I see no point in rehashing this over an over again.
    Which translates as:

    Originally Posted by Ygolo

    Daddy, mummy - big, bad bananatrombones pulled my pigtails! It hurts!
    Here's the thing... When I see pigtails, I just gotta give 'em a tug. And my dad's bigger than yours. In fact, he makes that 8 foot boxer fellow look like Mini-Me outa Austin Powers.


    There is one group trying to play a game they enjoy...the discussion of Myers-Briggs related topics, and another group simply taking snipes and make snide or hyperbolic interjections from the sidelines.

    That's the way I see it.
    Well the way you see it could be wrong. Any fair-minded person in a "debate" would be surely be open to this possibility.

    If it is relatively irrelevant to you, then please let us have our own fun discussing Myers-Briggs.
    This is where you have really blown it. Do you think this little "debate" is really about MBTI?

    Honestly buddy, your contentions don't stand up to the slightest scrutiny. But the bigger crime is that your ability to get a point across clearly and make meaningful arguments that are presented in a reasonable manner.

    A school debating society would rip you to shreds.

    You don't know the meaning of the word "debate".


    So Victor WAS using hypoerbole, then. I was simply pointing out that the statement was hyperbolic.
    No, Ygolo. Speaking figuratively and using hyperbole are not the same. Although I concede I might be guilty of such tactics now and again myself.

    This is allowed in "debate". Check the rules.


    Also, Victor is quite wrong, if he thinks that Myers-Briggs is not being used in reasearch.
    You better speak to Victor about that. In the meantime using one of my quotes and going on about Victor is bad etiquette.

    Now, as I've stated before, I believe there has been more than enough of this back-and-forth on something we clearly need to simply "agree to disagree" on.

    I'll leave you to it, then.

    All the best.

    PS. Usually debates - proper ones - are like British pubs. Nothing is meant personally or taken as such, even when this appears to be. Guys that get upset and spill their pints are considered poor Pub Warriors.

    Cheers.

  4. #74
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    It's terminology, and all systems of thought have terminology (with operational definitions) that people not versed in it will think is not "plain English". Then, they're either interested, and then learn the terms, or just move on to something else.

    (I don't think you ever answered people's questions of what this concealed cultic "intent" is).
    This is an electronic conversation across the world. Plain English is necessary for understanding.

    Some disciples such as music or mathematics have notation for convenience.

    But MBTI is not an intellectual discipline. In fact it is simply ridiculous as here we even type pets.

    And the fact that MBTI can't be expressed in plain English suggests that it is jargon meant to give it a false air of authority. But MBTI is no authority on the personality.

    And to answer your question - the intent of MBTI is to manipulate others, just like astrology.

    And the manipulation of others is an attack on their integrity.

    Why do you think we would not repel the attack?

  5. #75
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    But MBTI is not an intellectual discipline. In fact it is simply ridiculous as here we even type pets.
    Come, come, Victor. Everyone knows dogs are E and cats are I. Or vice-versa. Or something.

    Except MBTI (TM), who continue to insist their product should be for such mediocrities as finding the right job and/or role within a team. Whatever that might be. Nonsense, of course.

    Meanwhile. There's a duck in Slough that can tap-dance.

    Question is: INFP or INTJ?

    Pass the orange sauce.


  6. #76
    Member 4375's Avatar
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    I will say Dogs are ENFP's and Cats are INTJ's........mmmmmmmm plants can be ISFP's...... Yesh.......I must be bored.
    I am male. Don't hold it against me.

  7. #77
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    That's the Interaction Style, and it is a very noticeable and significant grouping; just about as much as Keirsey's groups.
    It's basically the classic "Sanguine" temperament, being extraverted (expressive) and people-focused ("informative"). It looks like a split between two unrelated groups, because for S's, people/task focus is attached to T/F preference, and for N's, it's the introverted or extraverted attitude of iNtuition. This because of two different frameworks beign mapped to each other.

    No offence, but I don't get how ENTPs can get lumped together with ESFJs and ESFPs?
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

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  8. #78
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    On the surface social skills, they're all extraverted and "'informative" or people-focused (rather than task-focused), which yields a "bright and friendly" style of interaction. In contrast to ENTJ, ENFJ and ESTP, who may be "bright", but will bedirective.
    Like I've met Jenocyde (ENTP). She clearly fits that style, like my wife (ESFJ). They are very different when looking at J/P, S/N, and to a lesser extent, T/F, but both are clearly "Sanguine" on the surface, so there is a similarity in personality.
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  9. #79
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default The Human Genome, Astronomy and MBTI.

    Just as biology is sequencing the human genome, half the country believes in creationism.

    And just as astronomy is reaching out into the universe, half of us believe in astrology.

    And here most of us believe in and practise a bogus personality test called MBTI.

    What's going on?

  10. #80
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, you lost me at "genome". I was hoping for some plain English on that. Oh wait, it's a defined term? Oh, okay.


    So it is becoming too evident, your fear that theory may rise up like some monster from the deepest darkest recesses under the bed and negate perception. Embrace the fear. Become whole. Dial 1800-MBTILUVZU now.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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