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  1. #61
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    And just as shame is precursory to guilt, so pride is precursory to a fall.

    Pass me the axe.


  2. #62
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We are pattern recognising animals.

    But even more, we need pattern to function.

    So we prefer any pattern to no pattern.

    But since the Enlightenment we have learnt that there are patterns which correspond to nature and those that don't.

    And we use empirical testing to determine which patterns correspond and which don't.

    For instance, astrology, alchemy, eugenics, Lysenkoism, phrenology, the Exodus and MBTI don't correspond to nature. In other words, empirical testing shows they are untrue.

    But we are still carried away with our own facility for pattern recognition and our own wish that they were true.

    In our vanity we mistake our wishes for reality.

    But even the Ancient Greeks knew that hubris is followed by nemesis.
    This is such horseshit, and I'm unsure why. Perhaps because it bears so little resemblance to what and how MBTI should be treated.

    It's a model. It's not supposed to be true or false. It's supposed only to correspond. Technically the model cannot be understood to truly correspond at all because there is no established connection between the model details and the functioning of the actual persons. That would be taken care of by establishing what preference is and where it comes from. And in the meanwhile, the correspondence is taken care of by magical observation, people seeing on an individual basis if the correspondence applies. Which is wholly unsatisfactory as Science and not truly a great basis for making the sweeping type claims that come out of MBTI talk, but, as usual, so what? This principled criticism of MBTI is, in a nutshell, no pun intended, "A Scalextric isn't a train, dammit!" To which we need only reply, "So what? It's a model of a train. If you want to play with real trains, it is and always will remain pointless to criticise Scalextrics for not being real."

    It's a model. A simplification of what exists out there. One must hate and fear Te to avoid world views such as these. One is actually required to shift into fucking useless ineffability, claiming literally that people cannot be known, cannot be modelled. When really, you twats, all you need to claim is that it is immoral to reduce people to their model. And you'd be right.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I have not read Dario.
    What about Sacks?

    What about the temptation as the tertiary is on the other side?
    A good question.

    Where is the shadow?
    What does it do?
    How does it come by?
    Good questions. Worth reflecting on.

    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Parroted is the work of parrots. Consider your statement.

    With all corporate business the transaction is an economic one: we have a buyer and a seller. We can have a lemon or a peach. Wrap it up how you like and make comparisons with research or academia.

    But you must know deep down that making any comparison between MBTI and, say, "industrial research" by stating irrelevant commonalities, such as funding, is deeply fallacious.

    My point was that it's a business and it works like a business. Is your retort: so what, there's alot of decent businessmen out there? Mine would be: there's alot of charlatans as well. How exactly do you make a distinction? You do not, Ygolo. You leave that to me, when, of course, that's your business as the supplier, not mine as the consumer. Effectively, you are saying, " Prove my Miracle Gro (TM) does not work". My reply to you would be that I have enough shit in the garden and your Miracle Gro is irrelevant.

    Who's the parrot, you or me?

    I don't find anything wrong with parroting ideas. It was certainly not meant as an insult.

    Unless you have done your own studies, you would have to be drawing from someone else's to say anything about the validity and reliability of an indicator. Parroting someone in this circumstance is normal and acceptable.

    Of those denouncing Myers-Briggs, only jaguar showed evidence. I showed some evidence to the contrary. The research was roughly from the mid 1980's. These days most of the research is done by CAPT. It looks like the empirical evidence is largely inconclusive.

    All I am saying is that something being a business is different from it being "first and foremost" a business. That is a charge that requires more than something making money.

    To make that point, I drew an extreme analogy to industrial research. The fact that they are businesses is the only salient property common to both Myers-Briggs consulting and industrial research as far as that point is concerned.

    Now if you have more evidence that the Myers-Briggs consultants are in it "first and foremost" for the money, that is a different story.

    It could be that the people teaching and spreading Myers-Briggs and related models (temperament, interaction styles, etc.) actually believe what they are teaching, and I doubt the money is that good when compared to what therapists and psychiatrists make.

    I am no supplier, I am consumer myself. The Miracle Gro seems to work rather well for me.

    I'm curious, if this stuff is irrelevant to you, why spend time debating or discussing it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    For instance, astrology, alchemy, eugenics, Lysenkoism, phrenology, the Exodus and MBTI don't correspond to nature. In other words, empirical testing shows they are untrue.
    Empirical testing is inconclusive for Myers-Briggs. That is not the same as proving it to be untrue.

    Also, the indicator itself is not where most of the value in the model is.

    Victor, please provide evidence when you repeat the charge that NO department of psychology supports practitioners or proponents of Myers-Briggs.

    There was support from the academic community during its development, namely from professors from the University of California, and the University of Florida.

    What type of skeptic are you? Do you believe that only Myers-Briggs theory is like astrology, or do you believe that all personality theories are like that?

    Do you favor the Five Factor Model that is currently in academic vogue? What about the MMPI? What about the Holland Codes? the Belbin Roles? learning styles? NLP?

    All these things attach labels and descriptions to people, are all of them a result of cold and warm reading?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #64
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Good questions. Worth reflecting on.

    I don't find anything wrong with parroting ideas. It was certainly not meant as an insult.

    Unless you have done your own studies, you would have to be drawing from someone else's to say anything about the validity and reliability of an indicator. Parroting someone in this circumstance is normal and acceptable.
    Fallicious thinking, but rest assured Ygolo, it was not taken as an insult. But you are incorrect. Parroting is never normal & acceptable in a rational debate because it indicates thoughtless regurgitation of others' ideas. However, as soon as you endorse an idea and apply it to your life it becomes yours. The decisions you make are yours; diverting moral responsibility for your decisions to someone else (eg Ms Myers & Ms Briggs) does not mean the onus is on these (now deceased) ladies but fall twofold on you: firstly for making a decision based on someone else's advice; secondly, for choosing a poor advisor.

    I use MBTI as an example, but extend this how you please.

    Of those denouncing Myers-Briggs, only jaguar showed evidence. I showed some evidence to the contrary. The research was roughly from the mid 1980's. These days most of the research is done by CAPT. It looks like the empirical evidence is largely inconclusive.
    Correct. Doesn't the inconclusive bit bother you?

    Now if you have more evidence that the Myers-Briggs consultants are in it "first and foremost" for the money, that is a different story.
    Even if they were not in it for the money, this in no way deminished my point but merely includes the possibility, among others, that they are deluded or wishful thinkers. Churches and mosques are full of such individuals.

    I am no supplier, I am consumer myself. The Miracle Gro seems to work rather well for me.
    The question was meant generally and - forgive me - was not meant literally. I suppose if my Miracle Gro works then I can keep up the supply.

    I'm curious, if this stuff is irrelevant to you, why spend time debating or discussing it?
    It's fun. I enjoy the cut and thrust of debate... and I expect you do, too! But I might be wrong.

    Empirical testing is inconclusive for Myers-Briggs. That is not the same as proving it to be untrue.
    Victor, please provide evidence when you repeat the charge that NO department of psychology supports practitioners or proponents of Myers-Briggs.
    More of the same Ygolo. I really am a bit disappointed in you. What's Victor to do - go around every Psychology Department in the world a request written submissions? Quite clearly Victor is being figurative and he illustrates a perfectly reasonable objection to MBTI: which is if it is so valid, why aren't psychologists coming out in droves to endorse it. You bandied a couple of names, but even if we were to discover a significant number of these fellows, it would be the quality of the forthcoming debate and any research that would be decisive - not the fact that a couple of guys in white suits endorse it. The onus is on the propounder to validate assertions; deflecting the onus is a cheap trick.

    This is called card-stacking.

  5. #65
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post

    [list][*]Get-Things-going Style(ESFs and ENPs) People who like to get things going tend to be energetic, animated, gregarious, expressive, enthusiastic, engaging, persuasive and casual. They have talents for making preparations, discovering new ways of seeing things, sharing insights, exploring options, facilitating, catalyzing, energizing, brainstorming, and persuading. They have an urgent need to involve people, and aim to get an embraced result. Their core belief is that it's worth the energy to involve everyone and get them to want to do what needs to be done. They have faith that whatever emerges form the interaction will move people forward.
    You were grouping the ENPs and ESFs together, I find that grossly inaccurate.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

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  6. #66
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    That's the Interaction Style, and it is a very noticeable and significant grouping; just about as much as Keirsey's groups.
    It's basically the classic "Sanguine" temperament, being extraverted (expressive) and people-focused ("informative"). It looks like a split between two unrelated groups, because for S's, people/task focus is attached to T/F preference, and for N's, it's the introverted or extraverted attitude of iNtuition. This because of two different frameworks beign mapped to each other.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  7. #67
    A Benign Tumor PoprocksAndCoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    We are not "tabula rasa" but are born with some innate tendencies.


    I'm assuming that means "blank slate" or something of the sort? I've always wondered what that meant.
    "In order for the light to shine so brightly, the darkness must be present." -Francis Bacon

    "No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." -George Chakiris

  8. #68
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    That's the Interaction Style, and it is a very noticeable and significant grouping; just about as much as Keirsey's groups.
    It's basically the classic "Sanguine" temperament, being extraverted (expressive) and people-focused ("informative"). It looks like a split between two unrelated groups, because for S's, people/task focus is attached to T/F preference, and for N's, it's the introverted or extraverted attitude of iNtuition. This because of two different frameworks beign mapped to each other.
    This is jargon. It is not plain English.

    But all cults use jargon to conceal their intent.

    And MBTI is no exception.

  9. #69
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoprocksAndCoke View Post


    I'm assuming that means "blank slate" or something of the sort? I've always wondered what that meant.
    That's right.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  10. #70
    A Benign Tumor PoprocksAndCoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    That's right.
    Thanks.
    "In order for the light to shine so brightly, the darkness must be present." -Francis Bacon

    "No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." -George Chakiris

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