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  1. #1
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Default Imagination and N/S

    It's more or less a reaction to Entropie's post in the "Why is the Arthouse so deserted" thread - but it's more general than that. I didn't figure out how to quote in a new thread, so here my manual quote.

    Entropie: "The SJs are living in different fantasy worlds".

    What? I was always under the impression that imagination was for Ns and reality for Ss... Am I wrong? I even thought, of all the types, the SJs would be the most concerned with the real world and the NPs the most detached. My idea went somewhat like this:
    SJs living in the real world, NJs trying to make their idea world reality, SPs observing the real world and NPs observing their idea world...

    What do you think? Is there a connection between imagination and type? If so, how should the connection be made?

  2. #2

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    If one looks at type in really, really, general terms your outline might hold (some) water. However, it doesn't really make sense to think that for that reason, S types don't have or use imaginations or that N types are totally removed from reality (the physical world).

    I guess my answer is most focused on the way you worded this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    What? I was always under the impression that imagination was for Ns and reality for Ss... Am I wrong?
    People have to live the real world, whether that's all there is to it for them or even if they pay much attention to it for them is another story. Also, imagination doesn't exist in one form. People can be imaginative in an artistic fashion, a managerial fashion, in regards to throwing a party, in literary style, and so on and so on.

    In short: unless you have a specific definition of imagination, no- it's probably not related to type.

  3. #3
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    Imagination is a trait of every functional, intelligent human being.

  4. #4
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Okay, I can imagine I'm not English-speaking, maybe my idea of "imagination" was too narrow.
    I was actually thinking of the 'imagination' J.K. Rowling refers to when she wrote "Vernon Dursley didn't approve of imagination'; or C.S. Lewis advocates in "if you read the right books, you'll know the ways of dragons; Eustace's main problem was he hadn't any imagination; ..." (Literature is where I get my English vocabulary!)

    So maybe a new question: how do you use your imagination and to which goals do you use it?

  5. #5
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Let's get back to S vs N basics here for a moment:

    S sees the data.
    N sees the relationships between the data.

    This is why S fantasies tend to follow a few particular lines of thought: Either they are imaginations about real-life typical happenings that conform to their sensory experiences or (more the SFPs) they can be some really wacked-out drug trippy fun imaginations where there isn't any real need for connections/relationships between the data points.

    The latter also comes out very strongly when an S is stressed beyond belief. The N will be tertiary or inferior, and it's weak... so they start having wild imaginations (usually paranoid to some degree) about things that don't really follow rationally from each other.

    An N can become more fantastical or elaborate with the fantasy but with a "method to the madness," there are patterns between all the data points. I don't know better terminology for it but it tends to be "rational/realistic fantasy" in the sense the points are connected in some coherent way if you know the system they're working in mentally.

    What N does is allow realistic patterns to be shifted from known/experienced sensor impressions to other datasets, keeping coherency even if the details are immensely different (which can result in very elaborate fantasies far divorced from their daily lives).

    So I think it's wrong to say that S does not have "imagination," that's sort of silly. however, what tends to be imagined is either a reflection of the reality they know OR it's something that is just a collection of stuff that appeals to them and the internal coherency is usually not nearly as strong as it is with the N. It usually includes a lot more concrete/sensory detail, whereas N is more about what is evoked by the detail.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #6
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Let's get back to S vs N basics here for a moment:

    S sees the data.
    N sees the relationships between the data.

    This is why S fantasies tend to follow a few particular lines of thought: Either they are imaginations about real-life typical happenings that conform to their sensory experiences or (more the SFPs) they can be some really wacked-out drug trippy fun imaginations where there isn't any real need for connections/relationships between the data points.

    The latter also comes out very strongly when an S is stressed beyond belief. The N will be tertiary or inferior, and it's weak... so they start having wild imaginations (usually paranoid to some degree) about things that don't really follow rationally from each other.

    An N can become more fantastical or elaborate with the fantasy but with a "method to the madness," there are patterns between all the data points. I don't know better terminology for it but it tends to be "rational/realistic fantasy" in the sense the points are connected in some coherent way if you know the system they're working in mentally.

    What N does is allow realistic patterns to be shifted from known/experienced sensor impressions to other datasets, keeping coherency even if the details are immensely different (which can result in very elaborate fantasies far divorced from their daily lives).

    So I think it's wrong to say that S does not have "imagination," that's sort of silly. however, what tends to be imagined is either a reflection of the reality they know OR it's something that is just a collection of stuff that appeals to them and the internal coherency is usually not nearly as strong as it is with the N. It usually includes a lot more concrete/sensory detail, whereas N is more about what is evoked by the detail.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #7
    Just a statistic rhinosaur's Avatar
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    Each of the types lives in their own fantasy world.

    The SJ fantasy world is all about what they perceive as the ideal society, or the ideal life.

  8. #8
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Let's get back to S vs N basics here for a moment:
    So I think it's wrong to say that S does not have "imagination," that's sort of silly.
    Yeah, I realised that... It is wrong. I just didn't understand the whole imagination/N/S thing, that was actually the reason of my first post.

    Anyway, thanks for your reply! It really helped me to better understand de N/S distinction.
    Now grasping the difference between Se and Si, or Ne and Ni, and I'm totally satisfied .

  9. #9
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Personally I'd say that most of the problems with the word "imagination" is that people use it to confirm their own definition like they do with intelligence. However more people are prepared to be unimaginative than unintelligent and so the definition is sometimes what people note in others that they conceptualise as "imagination".

    In point of fact imagination is the only thing your brain does, lacking any impact in reality itself without a middle man, so you could say that all is imaginary to a certain extent.

    Now in terms of day dreaming, that does tend to be more the province of intuitives... usually cause we're following a train of thought way beyond it's actual applicable use. So if people tend to think of imagination as getting lost in their own little worlds then yes intuitives do that more (INFPs probably being king of the pile) but if it's having an internal world which defies reality then in many ways SJs are more prone to it than anyone having a stronger preference to black and white definitions which aren't really supported in reality but are kept to keep the world under control and "sorted".

    As for the source of the thinking, I'd say you would benefit from thinking about who wrote it as much as what it means. The writer often provides more context than what they've written (something I'm aware I'm being guilty of right now...).
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #10
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    SJs live in a fantasy world where if they don't have everything in complete control the end of the world will always be just around the corner and that things were always way better in the past than they are now (or will be in the future).
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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