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  1. #11
    The Duchess of Oddity Queen Kat's Avatar
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    I usually look directly in someones eyes (and nothing else, I wouldn't even notice if someone was naked, except if they had grow eyes on their genitals, but that only happens very rarely). Sometimes I stare in the distance, mostly when I'm thinking. I find it really tiresome when someone always looks into my eyes as well. Two weeks ago I had to go to the bank, and there was this woman who I had to talk to to change my bank account. But that woman was looking in my eyes as well and so, after talking to her for fifteen minutes, my eyes started to hurt. I hope I'll never meet my lost twin.
    I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was obviously on. I used to fly myself and I said, "There's one terrible pilot."
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  2. #12
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    I used to study NLP Eye Accessing Cues but I was able to play this game called love/hate. After determining a general status of eye positioning/visual clues on where the eyes categories different times/values etc.. was able to get about 90 percent correct when I asked a person whether they hated or loved a person (I think it was closer to 95 percent because I had to trust the answerer of the test to tell me the objective truth afterwards (I noticed a lot of people who claimed to hate their fathers eye cues showed the opposite.

    Thus if eye cues have a tendency to show different MBTI types, not only is that helpful in itself but also incongruence with their eye positioning could give other clues (i.e. lying detecting). For example watching Mackenzie Phillips interview with her talking about her father (of the band The Mamas and the Papas raping her and having a long term incestuous relationship; based on her eye positioning incongruence, it told me she was lying.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I have to say, I'm a little dubious on the "eye-movement" stuff.

    Eye-movements are useful in detecting falsehood, true... but only if you have a baseline to start with, and as a single cue they're pretty fallible.

    The problem is that eyes MOVE.
    All the time.
    For many many varied reasons.

    About the only thing I can think of in terms of a "type-related" thing I've had outside validation on (i.e., I recognize I do it and never said anything, and independently a lot of other people have brought it up with me) is when I go into one of my "seeing into another reality" stares... where I would be staring at someone in a conversation and they would get a little freaked out because they felt I was staring through them, or staring at them but seeing something else.

    (I do that when playing piano and improvising, it's like dropping into a trance mode; I'd stare at someone in front of me who was watching, and they'd get unnerved. i wasn't really seeing them, I was "seeing the cloud of music" if that makes any sense.)

    But I still don't know if I could even pin that down as a particular type, it probably covers a range of various functions or function combos.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    When studying someones eye accessing cues, it does help if there is not too much distraction and even more helpful when the subject get in a trance or semi trancelike state.

    Also like to get your pattern down on how you think about things from the past present and future. What are your core values your thoughts as far as your abilities and your deservingness and ultimate desires. For me, regardless of this fact the eyes move around naturally a person nevertheless soon is able to notice a pattern when they train themselves to watch.

    The pattern is the status or home base, in other words its the combination of movements into a pattern not a fixed look where it helps one type a person. However in the NLP realm usually the types are based on their learning styles i.e. Visual Auditory and Kinetic (VAK) see Learning styles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This is the first time have heard the correlation/ typewatching to MBTI but what I hear above runs mostly true to myself.

    As an INTP and recently watched a video of myself giving a semi impromptu speech public; the following was noticed: think there is a tendency on my type to avoid direct eye contact for very long; tend to look upward in a V shaped pattern (different types of thoughts on the right side opposed to the left side, mostly look right). When I make a cause and effect (important) conclusion to all the points I have been making (as if just coming to the conclusion until right there and then) I look directly down at my sternum and it feels like I am physically pulling something up from within on the return when I pull my eyes up again to make eye contact. Since I don't see too many INTPs in the real world its hard to cooroborate.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    As an INTP and recently watched a video of myself giving a semi impromptu speech public; the following was noticed: think there is a tendency on my type to avoid direct eye contact for very long; tend to look upward in a V shaped pattern (different types of thoughts on the right side opposed to the left side, mostly look right). When I make a cause and effect (important) conclusion to all the points I have been making (as if just coming to the conclusion until right there and then) I look directly down at my sternum and it feels like I am physically pulling something up from within on the return when I pull my eyes up again to make eye contact. Since I don't see too many INTPs in the real world its hard to cooroborate.
    it's all well-and-good, but it also assumes that this behavior never changes. It ignores the typical human desire to communicate and connect to convey information.

    Thus, maybe your INTP at one extreme will follow this pattern; however, if they've had to learn to interact with others in more personable ways, now they're going to start mixing styles. This "tainting" of the baseline sample is impossible to avoid, "life" does it to everyone.

    So now you can't be sure whether you are seeing someone reflecting 'true to type' behavior or an amalgam of various styles that have been effective for them, you can't know it without knowing their type first, etc. I think when I was young I didn't make eye contact, but eventually I did it pretty incessantly, because I learned (1) it lets people know I'm listening and (2) it helps convey that I do care about what they are saying... which in turn encourages them to reach out to or listen to me.

    I think INTPs out of the box might show some of these patterns you describe. Basically, it's just an attempt to avoid personalizing the conversation and shows a lack of "speaker skills," the INTP is avoiding eye contact, the eyes here are not being used as communication tools but as mere reflections of the internal process and specifically AVOIDING other people's eyes in order to avoid the anxiety of not knowing how to connect if that eye contact is made. That seems typical theoretically of INTP behavior out of the box, but the more well-rounded INTPs I know have more personable approaches and aren't afraid of eye-contact.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    About the only thing I can think of in terms of a "type-related" thing I've had outside validation on (i.e., I recognize I do it and never said anything, and independently a lot of other people have brought it up with me) is when I go into one of my "seeing into another reality" stares... where I would be staring at someone in a conversation and they would get a little freaked out because they felt I was staring through them, or staring at them but seeing something else.
    I do this too. Typically in a conversation I will go into Ne space briefly by looking upwards, however extended Ne time on my own is me just dazing out.

    As for NLP-they will have you ask the person a series of questions-like "remember last christmas" then you see where their eyes go. However my ISFJ for instance didn't match the NLP patterns, even though I did. I almost feel like my crazy guesses here may hold more water than the NLP guesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    For me, regardless of this fact the eyes move around naturally a person nevertheless soon is able to notice a pattern when they train themselves to watch.

    This is the first time have heard the correlation/ typewatching to MBTI but what I hear above runs mostly true to myself.

    As an INTP and recently watched a video of myself giving a semi impromptu speech public; the following was noticed: think there is a tendency on my type to avoid direct eye contact for very long; tend to look upward in a V shaped pattern (different types of thoughts on the right side opposed to the left side, mostly look right). When I make a cause and effect (important) conclusion to all the points I have been making (as if just coming to the conclusion until right there and then) I look directly down at my sternum and it feels like I am physically pulling something up from within on the return when I pull my eyes up again to make eye contact. Since I don't see too many INTPs in the real world its hard to cooroborate.
    I realized I didnt really talk about ISTPs and INTPs. I have only known two ISTPs-one I was married to and the other I worked with for a long time. Both had the Ti stare but it is pretty brutal to be on the receiving end. They find everyone in the world to be incompetent and have no problem letting their facial expressions illustrate this. It's almost like the Ti stare has focal points.

    For TiSe it is grounded very painfully on the "target" of attention. ISTPs do not want you in their space unless you have earned it. They drive you out with Ti. For NeTi, it is focused, a bit piercing but not painful. For TiNe it is hard to define. It is like the focal point of the stare is inside their heads. They look at you, but not really at you.

    I work with a ton of INTPs. Very little eye contact, but not Fi downwards glances, just not actually looking at you mostly. I'll pay more attention and see if I can find a trend.

    I shall go INTP hunting

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Kar View Post
    I usually look directly in someones eyes (and nothing else, I wouldn't even notice if someone was naked, except if they had grow eyes on their genitals, but that only happens very rarely). Sometimes I stare in the distance, mostly when I'm thinking. I find it really tiresome when someone always looks into my eyes as well. Two weeks ago I had to go to the bank, and there was this woman who I had to talk to to change my bank account. But that woman was looking in my eyes as well and so, after talking to her for fifteen minutes, my eyes started to hurt. I hope I'll never meet my lost twin.
    Try taking two ENTPs out to dinner. It is very interesting to watch. The just watch each other. My entp friend said it wasnt worth the effort to try and play a "game" to interact, as both understand they are playing a game. I had no idea how little eye contact I made until I started watching the entps never stop making eye contact when they talk.

    Let me know about that genital eye correlation. (perhaps I have eyes on my boobs...it might explain the ENTP boys a bit better)
    Likes xXMariahXx liked this post

  7. #17
    Senior Member epp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paintmuffin View Post
    This definitely doesn't apply to me... I physically control my eye movements at all times because I feel EXTREMELY uncomfortable making eye contact with people.
    no, this particular "eye chart" may not apply to you, but I'm sure you use something similar, too. Ne-monster was talking about NLP eye accessing cues... which is quite a specific thing.

    it doesn't mean that a very Ne-person (such as me) is walking around, looking upwards all the time. these are actually glances - and they might be very brief - that a person makes when talking or expressing themselves, no matter where he or she looks generally. it also takes some practice to learn how to "read" it as some people barely move their eyes at all...

    and, again, these eye movements the OP was talking about, are involuntary and subconscious and actually IMPOSSIBLE to control. believe me, I've personally tried and many NLP practitioners have tried, I'm quite sure most people who have learned the "eye chart" have tried...

    just videotape yourself once when being interviewed and you'll see for yourself

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    Fi-(NLP kinesthetic)-downward glances, little direct eye contact


    Ni-drooling, not really in the room with the rest of us. Some Ni doms will actually have whole conversations with you while they stare off into space.

    Te-dominating, almost glare like. My enfps will actually pair this with a crinkled brow. INTJs will alternate the Ni drool look with the very direct Te glare. It isnt just studying-like Ti-it is almost confrontational.

    Se and Si-I dont quite have a fix on these two yet. Most of my Si users use Te looks and most of my Se users use Fe or Te looks. [/B]
    I do the Fi and Ni looks a bit. I do a ton of scanning though, more than these. I only do Te when I'm in a bad mood.

  9. #19
    Senior Member epp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    So in Neurolinguistic programming there is a theory that different eye movements correspond to different types of information retrieval-verbal, visual or Kinesthetic, either imagined or remembered.

    Here is a site that talks about it in more depth:
    NLP Eye Accessing Cues

    After I started paying attention to this I realized that the Jungian cognitive functions seem to match very closely and repeatedly to eye movements.

    Ne-(NLP visual retrieval)-upwards at angles

    Ti-Very direct, piercing, observing, even staring albeit the INTPs are a little spacier in their stares.

    Fi-(NLP kinesthetic)-downward glances, little direct eye contact

    Fe-in terts like EXTPs, they do lots of side glances-verbal retrieval
    Fe-in doms and auxs, they seem to do a lot of softly directing looks paired with soft controlled smiles, and some side glancing

    Ni-drooling, not really in the room with the rest of us. Some Ni doms will actually have whole conversations with you while they stare off into space.

    Te-dominating, almost glare like. My enfps will actually pair this with a crinkled brow. INTJs will alternate the Ni drool look with the very direct Te glare. It isnt just studying-like Ti-it is almost confrontational.

    Se and Si-I dont quite have a fix on these two yet. Most of my Si users use Te looks and most of my Se users use Fe or Te looks.


    Anyways this is all I use anymore to type people. It is always right so far. More so than anything else-clothing, speech, face or whatever. But the dynamic aspect seems important-you have to watch the fluctuations between looks while they talk.

    Typically the eyes will alternate between two different types of looks-Ne, Fi or Ne, Te for me, but sometimes combining into NeFi as a combination. In the second post I will put my pics trying to illustrate this for me.

    Can you guys help me confirm or deny? Can you watch a couple of folks around you and see if this seems true?
    as for the OP. I really can't give a good opinion as I don't really understand some functions, e.g. Se and Si are something I just don't "get" what they are about. yes, I've read the theory, but I still don't "get" them...

    but I too have found quite a strong correlation (not scientific, though, just my observation) between visuals and strong (!) Ns. this seems to be a VERY obvious connection indeed. then again, I, being a strong visual and an extreme N (both Ne and Ni) myself, just tend to notice them more than other types

    I would be a little careful with using the "eye chart" directly for typing, though. there is a reason they remind NLPers to "calibrate" every single person... all people are different and they think in different ways, they may also use their functions in so many ways we can't even imagine.

    but generally, I find it to be a good observation, seems to make sense, and I will try and test it. thanks!

  10. #20
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think INTPs out of the box might show some of these patterns you describe. Basically, it's just an attempt to avoid personalizing the conversation and shows a lack of "speaker skills," the INTP is avoiding eye contact, the eyes here are not being used as communication tools but as mere reflections of the internal process and specifically AVOIDING other people's eyes in order to avoid the anxiety of not knowing how to connect if that eye contact is made. That seems typical theoretically of INTP behavior out of the box, but the more well-rounded INTPs I know have more personable approaches and aren't afraid of eye-contact.
    Perhaps in one on one.

    And clearly I wouldn't to be one to ask others to emulate what I do.

    At the same time doing what others do does not suit me either. Have attempted approaches of unnaturally maintaining eye contact. What I have found, with me, being more true to my own style makes what I say more genuine. Especially when I have done the research and know what I am talking about. My eye cues help me drive my brain and thus I try and go with them instead of crossing them for the sake of social norms. It feels like soul surfing. The fact that I seem comfortable with "not eyeballing" my audience seems to even make them now feel comfortable as I speak my mind and heart.

    Also knowing eye cues are essentially involuntary by NLP training in fact make me even more protective of showing my eyes, particularly in an adversarial matter (unless those situations which are so adversarial where the eye of the tiger is required)
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

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