User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 91

  1. #1
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default why nobody is actually borderline P/J

    I'm pasting this from an extended wall conversation I've been having with Two Point Two, because I thought it had some other applications and might result in some good discussion. It provides support for my ongoing assertion that only the four primary functions (dom, aux, tert, inf) are ever truly exercised.

    This is in the context of speaking to an INTJ:


    A good example of what I mean here is people who claim to be borderline P/J.

    In actuality this doesn't make any sense because P and J imply completely different sets of functional value systems. I've seen people claim to be something like ENFx, which is ridiculous because it implies that Fi, Fe, Ni and Ne are all of equal importance to you, and this simply doesn't work because Fi and Fe are so fundamentally opposed in their approaches (same for Ni and Ne.) (Amusingly, people who claim ENFx are virtually always ENFPs who are just attracted to the idea of being "miscellaneous". "Wow, I don't fit into any of the molds! I guess that's cause I'm just SO unique and different!" It's no coincidence that "be unique and different/don't fit the molds/go outside the box" is such a huge part of Ne's value system. Go fucking figure!)

    This is what I mean about how every behavior, thought, action and opinion can be reduced further until you end up with ~4 primary life directives...one for Je, one for Ji, one for Pe and one for Pi.

    People who make these claims simply don't understand enough about functional dichotomies to recognize why they're implicitly contradicting themselves. We're not working with 8 mutually exclusive and completely independent processes here; we're working with an interconnected system of competing and often absolute opposite value systems. Saying that you value Fi and Fe equally is completely absurd; you just don't understand the implications of those terms.

    I may "use Fi" sometimes, but not because I place any fundamental value in Fi itself, but rather because I recognize situations where Fi's values happen to align with my own (which are invariably the result of Ne+Ti+Fe+Si.) I have no shame in admitting that I find Ti a totally superior system for internal judgments, but then--of course I do, I'm a Ti user! Again you need to direct your focus toward the total reasoning process and its most basic underlying values, not just the surface behavior or end conclusion.

    You as an Fi user may make decisions in some situations that resemble Fe decisions, but it's always possible to look further into the motivations for those decisions and recognize which function or functional combination was ultimately responsible. Just because you did something that a lot of Fe users commonly do doesn't mean that Fe actually motivated your reasoning process to do it. I realized this through just talking to a lot of people and prying for honest, deep insight as to the most basic values that make them tick--and trust me, nobody values Fi and Fe equally. The natures of those two value systems are too fundamentally contradictory.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,436

    Default

    Not even worth my time.
    The future is for the unafraid.

  3. #3
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    451 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INFp Ni
    Posts
    1,373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    I've seen people claim to be something like ENFx, which is ridiculous because it implies that Fi, Fe, Ni and Ne are all of equal importance to you, and this simply doesn't work because Fi and Fe are so fundamentally opposed in their approaches (same for Ni and Ne.)
    Everything is fundamentally opposed, yet the universe somehow manages not to fly apart. This is because every opposition is unified at a higher level (the highest level being yourself considered as a perspective). If this weren't the case, you could have no awareness except of one thing at a time, since multiplicity is the most basic form of opposition. My point is this: everyone is a patchwork of paradoxes, so a person could very well contain Ni and Ne at the same time. All they would need for this is some higher, more universal concept to embrace those lesser ones (for example, undifferentiated intuition).
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  4. #4
    morose bourgeoisie
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,860

    Default

    Can you give examples of how Fe and Fi approach a problem differently?

    When you say that 'I recognize situations where Fi's values happen to align with my own' are you implying that Fi is something exterior to your values? Does it have it's own values? What constitues your values vis-a-vis this difference? thx.

  5. #5
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    6,168

    Default

    I walk up the stairs then I walk down the stairs, then I walk up the stairs, then I walk down the stairs. I continue this for the rest of my life. So am I someone who walks up the stairs or down the stairs?

  6. #6
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    I walk up the stairs then I walk down the stairs, then I walk up the stairs, then I walk down the stairs. I continue this for the rest of my life. So am I someone who walks up the stairs or down the stairs?
    You are someone who walks upstairs while you are in the process of walking upstairs, and you are someone who walks downstairs while you are in the process of walking down the stairs. While not on the stairs, you are a person who doesn't walk on stairs.

    In other words... you're dynamic in this regard. You are whatever you're doing. What you've done in the past (what you were) or what you will do in the future (what you will be) doesn't matter in regards to this question.

  7. #7
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    1,155

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I'm pasting this from an extended wall conversation I've been having with Two Point Two, because I thought it had some other applications and might result in some good discussion. It provides support for my ongoing assertion that only the four primary functions (dom, aux, tert, inf) are ever truly exercised.

    This is in the context of speaking to an INTJ:


    A good example of what I mean here is people who claim to be borderline P/J.

    In actuality this doesn't make any sense because P and J imply completely different sets of functional value systems. I've seen people claim to be something like ENFx, which is ridiculous because it implies that Fi, Fe, Ni and Ne are all of equal importance to you, and this simply doesn't work because Fi and Fe are so fundamentally opposed in their approaches (same for Ni and Ne.) (Amusingly, people who claim ENFx are virtually always ENFPs who are just attracted to the idea of being "miscellaneous". "Wow, I don't fit into any of the molds! I guess that's cause I'm just SO unique and different!" It's no coincidence that "be unique and different/don't fit the molds/go outside the box" is such a huge part of Ne's value system. Go fucking figure!)

    This is what I mean about how every behavior, thought, action and opinion can be reduced further until you end up with ~4 primary life directives...one for Je, one for Ji, one for Pe and one for Pi.

    People who make these claims simply don't understand enough about functional dichotomies to recognize why they're implicitly contradicting themselves. We're not working with 8 mutually exclusive and completely independent processes here; we're working with an interconnected system of competing and often absolute opposite value systems. Saying that you value Fi and Fe equally is completely absurd; you just don't understand the implications of those terms.

    I may "use Fi" sometimes, but not because I place any fundamental value in Fi itself, but rather because I recognize situations where Fi's values happen to align with my own (which are invariably the result of Ne+Ti+Fe+Si.) I have no shame in admitting that I find Ti a totally superior system for internal judgments, but then--of course I do, I'm a Ti user! Again you need to direct your focus toward the total reasoning process and its most basic underlying values, not just the surface behavior or end conclusion.

    You as an Fi user may make decisions in some situations that resemble Fe decisions, but it's always possible to look further into the motivations for those decisions and recognize which function or functional combination was ultimately responsible. Just because you did something that a lot of Fe users commonly do doesn't mean that Fe actually motivated your reasoning process to do it. I realized this through just talking to a lot of people and prying for honest, deep insight as to the most basic values that make them tick--and trust me, nobody values Fi and Fe equally. The natures of those two value systems are too fundamentally contradictory.

    +1
    __________________


    I'M OUTTA HERE.

    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

    PEACE OUT!!!


  8. #8
    triple nerd score poppy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    intj
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    2,220

    Default

    I agree with a lot of what you said (most notably the J/P thing...you can't really straddle that dichotomy without being two different people).

    However, people do use all 8 functions, obviously at different levels of proficiency. For instance, to say an INTJ never uses Fe as a function in itself ever, but only as a mockery of the function would be to imply that INTJs have no genuine concern whatsoever for social harmony (and some of us sure act like it) but that would make us sociopaths. Likewise if an ENFP had no Ti, they would have no (objective) concept of truth, and would be compulsive liars. (No?)

    So what I'm wondering is exactly where you stand on this. Because some of the language you use ("nobody values Fi and Fe equally"--big emphasis on the equally) implies that you don't think it's that black and white, but everything else you say suggests that you do. And sometimes you get kind of hyperbolic to make a point, so if you could pin that down for me, I'll be done here.
    "There's no need to be embarrassed about it, Mr. Spock. It happens to the birds and the bees!"

  9. #9
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    6,168

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You are someone who walks upstairs while you are in the process of walking upstairs, and you are someone who walks downstairs while you are in the process of walking down the stairs. While not on the stairs, you are a person who doesn't walk on stairs.

    In other words... you're dynamic in this regard. You are whatever you're doing.
    I was talking hypothetically.

  10. #10
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    What We Mean When We Speak of the 'inFp', etc - A Critique of the J/P Designation in the MBTI

    Anyway, Simulatedworld. I would agree with what you say, in regards to the MBTI assumptions.

    But I also believe we could question whether the preference for closure actually works the way MBTI implies. Like these people do, for instance.

Similar Threads

  1. Why Nobody Cares the President Is Lying
    By Z Buck McFate in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 04-23-2017, 09:54 AM
  2. Why Each Myers Briggs Stereotype is Actually False
    By CarolineForbes in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-09-2015, 06:29 AM
  3. Why Prayer is a SIN and affront to God
    By nozflubber in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 03-05-2009, 11:08 AM
  4. [ESTP] why ESTP is rarely present, or even talked?
    By niki in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 05-04-2008, 09:57 AM
  5. This is why incest is against the law...
    By The Ü™ in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-14-2007, 01:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO