User Tag List

First 678910 Last

Results 71 to 80 of 91

  1. #71
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    Really, the deeper you go into MBTI, the more it doesn't make sense. It still doesn't make sense irrational types are apparently judging types. You should believe in "shadow functions" - having only four functions is stupid. It has no intertype relationships, function positions are pretty much nonexistant, every function manifests itself differently in every position (MBTI doesn't touch on that at all). This is why ..... socionics is superior.
    John Beebe's model provides that for MBTI; however, there does not seem to be any single publication on the complete model; just individual articles and some information in type books.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  2. #72
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    That's why I try to prove my hypotheses wrong, not prove them right.
    I do both. It just depends on the situation.

    Years ago I set out to prove something important, wrong.
    In the process, I proved it was right.

    I have a habit of saying, "What the hell is wrong with this picture?"
    Some might see what I do as a negative.
    Fortunately for me, it has proven to be a great strength.
    People have always called me up, asking me to "shred" their ideas.
    If I can't shred the idea, they run with it.

    I just don't think a four dimensional tool is complex enough to give satisfactory answers. But there are so many other dimensions that go into motivation that most of the time you'll miss hugely important factors by just using MBTI.

    The point of MBTI is that it's simple and quick. If you want something deep, you have to realize that it will be slower and more complex. MBTI isn't a good tool for that stuff.
    Agreed.

    Choosing to use something that is slower and complex doesn't phase me.
    I prefer depth over breadth.

  3. #73
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    In reality, functions/processes cannot "agree" or "disagree" at all, even though we often use that parlance. The ego is the only self-conscious entity, and the processes or functions are just that; processes and functions (actions) employed by the ego. The attitude is simply the location the actions are taken in, or standards derived from. I believe this is the way Jung originally framed his theory, though I have seen it said that it was later on that he reframed it so that introversion and extraversion were strictly "dominant function attitude". Hence, in practice, the functions become sort of virtual egos in themselves. I think his earlier conception was better and covers many people's anomalies more accurately.
    So it's the ego that chooses one attitude and function and rejects others. But it is easy to see that it is possible for the ego to engage the rejected stuff, for whatever reason. (And the more he does it, the better at it he becomes, hence the ambiguity for some).
    Well, the part about the functions becoming virtual egos is kind of a big part of my theory here. Influences from all four value systems blend together in varying concentrations to produce an infinite number of unique individuals. My theory does not force people into boxes; it simply argues that certain general approaches (which still contain room for near-infinite variety in terms of which functions are applied to which situations and in what concentrations) tend to be more successful than others.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Choosing to use something that is slower and complex doesn't phase me.
    I prefer depth over breadth.
    Yup, that's why I've tried to rework these theories together into my own combination so that I can do both depending on the situation. MBTI works for the quick surface analysis based on very little info; Jungian functions work better to dig deeper and describe underlying value systems. If you'd actually read what I've written on this instead of imagining your own reality about what I think, you'd understand that I don't think MBTI accurately describes reality, but rather an idealized version of what reality could be. (This is very characteristically Ne of me, now that I think about it.)

    I am still working on refining my personal function theory, and I always will be. That's how learning works. I don't understand why you think you've proven anything by pointing out that what I think today is not necessarily what I thought yesterday. How on earth is that a bad thing? I'd be much more worried if my positions never changed!
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #74
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    The point isn't forcing people into conformity or stifling individuality or whatever other conspiracy theories your angry gut reactions seem to believe.
    As usual your opening sentence blows it, and I hit the delete key without even reading the rest of your post.

    Send INTJ123 a PM. You have us confused.

  5. #75
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    As usual your opening sentence blows it, and I hit the delete key without even reading the rest of your post.

    Send INTJ123 a PM. You have us confused.
    Honestly I'd appreciate it if you'd actually make an attempt at intelligent discourse here. The whole "I'm too lazy to read your threads"+"I'll just invent my own conception of what you think and stick to it like crazy glue" approach is getting awfully tiring.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #76
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    1,557

    Default

    do you two know each other in real-life or something?

  7. #77
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Well, the part about the functions becoming virtual egos is kind of a big part of my theory here. Influences from all four value systems blend together in varying concentrations to produce an infinite number of unique individuals. My theory does not force people into boxes; it simply argues that certain general approaches (which still contain room for near-infinite variety in terms of which functions are applied to which situations and in what concentrations) tend to be more successful than others.
    It still makes more sense to focus on the ego (the conscious part of the larger Self) as the one posessing consciousness. Then, the functions are called "kinds of consciousness", but the near infinite number of individuals consists of Selves choosing different functions and orientations.

    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Yeh, I was (in a way) alluding to the problem with this transition. I agree. In the model having a continuum running between J and P causes many problems. The mapping to Jungian is a problem in the sense that MBTi defines J/P to choose between the extroverted J or P function, so completely changes the function set either side of the divide. The point the function order must cross at half way brings functions that do not mix together as the dominant function.

    If we stick to the four function idea, we can separate into four type groups (defined by function set).

    1. [Ni Fe Ti Se] - INFJ, ENFJ, ISTP, ESTP
    2. [Ni Te Fi Se] - INTJ, ENTJ, ISFP, ESFP
    3. [Ne Fi Te Si] - INFP, ENFP, ISTJ, ESTJ
    4. [Ne Ti Fe Si] - INTP, ENTP, ISFJ, ESFJ

    When moving across the barriers on the axes the following happens:

    - I/E switches the order of the Nx/Sx and Fy/Ty functions.
    - F/T switches the e/i of the Fx and Ty functions and swaps their position.
    - N/S switches the e/i of the Nx and Sy functions and swaps their position.
    - J/P switches the e/i of all the functions and does the switch I/E does.

    Looking at the transitions:

    T/F axis: As you move from T to F the balance of the Tx function to the Fx function changes. At halfway both would be similar strengths I'd assume. So you would end up with Tx and Fx at a certain level, and Ty and Fy at a weaker level. ie. an ENxP would be something like Ne>Fi=Ti>Te=Fe>....>Si. The N/S axis is analogous to this.

    I/E axis: As you move from I to E the relative strengths of the Nx/Sx and Ty/Fy functions change. At halfway you would end up with Nx/Sx and Ty/Fy at similar strengths. So an xNFP would be something like Ne=Fi>Te=Si>....

    J/P axis: As you move from J to P the balance of the Tx to Ty, Fx to Fy, Nx to Ny, and Sx to Sy changes. The Nx/Sx to Ty/Fy ratios also change. At halfway you would end up with NF, NT, SF, or ST functions all at one strength. An ENFx would be something like Ne=Ni=Fe=Fi>Te=Ti=Se=Si. Just to the P side of equilibrium it would be Ne>Ni>Fi>Fe>Te>Ti>Se>Si maybe.

    I'm undecided on whether these combinations are plausible. What would it mean to lead equally with Ne, Ni, Fe and Fi. Looking at the contrast between ENFP and INFJ, you'd think you would go insane. But the conflict might be in what functions the other doesn't use, not what function they do. An INFJ will say I'm disordered, inconsistent, socially ignorant. The question is, am I these things because I am something that requires me to be ie. Ne dominant and Fi focused on the personal, or am I these things because I lack in Ni and Fe. If Ne really does need possibilities, and Ni does need closure, could I happily switch between them as an ENFx or do they cause too much long term conflict to co-exist as leaders.
    The whole system was completely done with the moderate scales here:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ity-types.html

    I'm looking into trying it again using the Jack Flak system (Just I, E, and add A (ambiversion), and just a "dominant" function replacing the "extraverted" one, along with a support, and no function attitudes). Then, maybe Sensing, iNtuition, [ambidextrous perception]; Thinking, Feeling, Birational
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  8. #78
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    do you two know each other in real-life or something?
    He's my pizza delivery boy.

  9. #79

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Well, the part about the functions becoming virtual egos is kind of a big part of my theory here. Influences from all four value systems blend together in varying concentrations to produce an infinite number of unique individuals. My theory does not force people into boxes; it simply argues that certain general approaches (which still contain room for near-infinite variety in terms of which functions are applied to which situations and in what concentrations) tend to be more successful than others.
    I notice the dominant function normally sets the pace for the others. You are in it most of the time, so it and a little of the auxiliary shape your habits and world view. This can make lower functions slaves to achieving the goals of the strong functions. ie. you avoid using them purely or as means to their own end. Sometimes this extends to the auxiliary being a slave even, but most MBTi sites call this a bad habit rather than the healthy way. I agree with your earlier note that some functions are very difficult to use truly. As an ENTP, Fi will be very alien. I know Ti is crazily hard work for me. To tell the truth, I don't see the point of using Ti. It feels limiting. Which is probably how you see Fi. It conflicts with my normal style of thinking.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  10. #80
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    The black and white part is the functional combination, not the particular order of the functions in any given combination. Each person uses one Ji attitude, one Je, one Pi and one Pe--but never two of the same cognitive process, and never two different directions of the same process. (e.g., you might see someone who uses Ni+Fi as the top two functions, but never Ni+Si or Ni+Ne.)

    Now as for the orders of those functions--some people have them in different orders than what MBTI suggests, but it's my contention that these people virtually always suffer from personality imbalances and could generally improve their results in life by working to balance out their priorities so that their top two functions contain an E, an I, a P and a J. This is most conducive to self-actualization, balance and happiness.
    first part makes sense. Second part-mlitterall suggested this might be biochemical at one point. I could see this being a result of genetic variation in energy supply to various portions of neural circuitry. However in both ENXPs I see the tert function in moderate to strong development to be very beneficial at times. Few of my ENFP males seem sensitive. They all use Te strongly and can be quite direct and even confrontational as needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    I agree.

    Children, up to a certain age, should not be expected to have strongly developed preferences or value systems.
    I disagree about the preferences in children. I can see both aux and tert functions playing out weakly in my IXTJ toddler. Funny, he has Fi weeks, then Te weeks. In retrospect i could see them in my ENFP when he was small-expressed as episodes of Te rage. he was kicked out of four daycares for anger problems. Just now at 13 is his Fi able to control his frustration. He has become annoyingly nice honestly.

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Ew, shape shifters, they exist, and they're terrifying.
    My utter most favorite ENTP is fascinating. He is not cleanly NeTiFe at all. You can see those pieces at work but you can also see Fi in particular at times (15 years married to an ISFP). It spikes though and will knock him off track. He also spends a lot of time meditating and after a few minutes of that will feel very Ni grounding. Interesting there are times you can see his innate Fe actually conflicting with his other learned functions. The looks on his face at this point are very conflicted. He insists he is not an ENTP-and he really isnt anymore. NeTiFe with NiFi moments all strewn throughout. Yet everyone admires his integrity and he is well loved. Shapeshifter I'd say, yet beneficially so.

    However his nemesis, my other favorite ENTP, is self identified as NeFeTi. He is profoundly self centered and uses Fe to manipulate his way in social settings. He can appear polite but is very strange at times as Fe dominates his life. He is detested but respected for his knowledge. He is very moody and lost much of the time. He can be what is considered evil.

Similar Threads

  1. Why Nobody Cares the President Is Lying
    By Z Buck McFate in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 04-23-2017, 09:54 AM
  2. Why Each Myers Briggs Stereotype is Actually False
    By CarolineForbes in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-09-2015, 06:29 AM
  3. Why Prayer is a SIN and affront to God
    By nozflubber in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 03-05-2009, 11:08 AM
  4. [ESTP] why ESTP is rarely present, or even talked?
    By niki in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 05-04-2008, 09:57 AM
  5. This is why incest is against the law...
    By The Ü™ in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-14-2007, 01:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO