User Tag List

First 45678 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 91

  1. #51
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    I'm clueless as to how this or anything else in your post has any relevance to what I said. I feel like you're addressing a caricature of me, one based on the mentality that you think someone must have if they disagree with you. You talk about how I seem to focus on "surface appearances," but I never suggested anything like that.
    You didn't have to. You implied it with this statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki
    My point is this: everyone is a patchwork of paradoxes, so a person could very well contain Ni and Ne at the same time.
    If you hadn't noticed, it's my contention that people are not patchworks of paradoxes at all, and that their behavior is far more rationally consistent and predictably in their own self-interest than many people seem to realize. If you really reduce people's value systems to their most fundamental components, you'll find that most people are actually quite consistent with themselves--not a so-called "patchwork of paradoxes." This interpretation is the result of poor understanding of other people's values and the true motivations for them.

    On top of that, your reasoning doesn't follow at all. The fact that you find people to be "patchworks of paradoxes" (which I find questionable in the first place, but we'll get to that) doesn't serve as any indication that this particular paradox (having Ne and Ni as two primary functions, for instance) can actually exist.

    I've written a good bit about this all over the rest of this thread; you can read that if you care enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    When I said that someone can contain contradictions and that reality is in fact rife with such contradictions, I literally meant that. By extension, there's every reason to allow the possibility that someone could prefer the introverted and extroverted forms of a function. The MBTI ignores that possibility, of course, but the MBTI does not reign supreme over human psychology. The MBTI is just a theory, a mental construct, a rough outline. All it does is sort people into arbitrary categories that are at best rough generalizations. At worst they're an excuse to supplant the infinite variation of reality with a cold, theoretical simplicity.
    I'm sure you meant it literally; that doesn't make it any more credible. The MBTI is only a small part of my typology theory...as I pointed out above, I see value in its 16 molds because they represent idealized functional orders that offer the most balance and utility.

    I don't believe that MBTI's 16 function molds are the ONLY ones that actually exist in practice, just that they're the most useful combinations in theory.


    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I get your point, but what basis do you have for assuming people can't switch between Xi and Xe.

    I hope you're not implying that INTPs NEVER use Te, Ni, Se, and Fi.

    Anyway, what about this, even assuming you only use 4 functions -- say you're INTP but you use Si and Fe a lot. Those are J functions. So you could be borderline between NTP and SFJ.
    I don't believe that INTPs use Te, Ni, Se or Fi but that's because my definitions of functions aren't specific instances of particular use so much as underlying value systems resulting in certain types of beliefs and behaviors.

    What is "using a function", exactly? I'm afraid we don't have the same definition of this.

    I think all surface behaviors are the end result of four functions working in concert and influencing a person together as one fluid unit...not as individual pieces that constantly switch in and out every second. Therefore, my functional definitions seek to explain root value systems, the most basic motivations for people's attitudes, beliefs and actions...not the surface actions themselves. I find that trivial.

    My justification for saying that people can't switch between Xi and Xe is simply that I see these processes as deep-seated underlying value systems, not just as simple present-tense cognitive processes. They pervade everything about a person's outlook and approach to personality itself--and given that Xe and Xi have some very serious disagreements in terms of their most basic conceptions of everything, it's pretty difficult to switch from one to another, especially across P/J lines.

    As for being borderline NTP and SFJ, I don't think that really happens much because the tertiary and inferior functions are, by their very nature, never able to develop to anywhere near the same level as the more natural dominant and auxiliary. Well-developed tertiary and inferior functions are still pretty poor when compared to people who perform those functions naturally as one of their top two. Personally, I don't think that anyone can truly balance the dom and aux, either, but that it's a good theoretical ideal to aim for because it represents total balance and harmony.

    I've seen INFPs turn ENFP as they got older, but this doesn't involve any actual changing of functions, just the order of priority. I've also seen a Te-deficient INTJ grow from incredibly shy and depressed into a self-actualized and healthy human being because he learned how to use Te skills--he learned a new value system as a method of interacting effectively with the outer world that he wouldn't have had without a strong extroverted function.

    But this kind of thing doesn't happen overnight. Functional attitudes are so deeply rooted in people's value systems...you can't just swap them out like changing clothes. "I feel like being an INTJ today, but I'll be ENTP tomorrow!" It doesn't work like that.

    I seek to explain why, rather than how. It doesn't matter to me how we label the process of taking in sensory information or of considering it internally; it matters what deeper value systems using these methods primarily will lead to and how we can apply those to better identifying with other people's perspectives.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #52
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I'm sure you meant it literally; that doesn't make it any more credible. The MBTI is only a small part of my typology theory...as I pointed out above, I see value in its 16 molds because they represent idealized functional orders that offer the most balance and utility.

    I don't believe that MBTI's 16 function molds are the ONLY ones that actually exist in practice, just that they're the most useful combinations in theory.
    Could you talk briefly about the rest of your typology theory, and the ways in which function orders might differ from theory in practice? I think it would help some of the people who aren't getting what you're trying to say put it in context and see where you're coming from.

  3. #53
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Could you talk briefly about the rest of your typology theory, and the ways in which function orders might differ from theory in practice? I think it would help some of the people who aren't getting what you're trying to say put it in context and see where you're coming from.
    Haha see my edit to the post directly above yours, in response to Evan.

    EDIT: I thought of some more that I can include here.


    One of the most common non-standard functional orders occurs when the secondary function is underdeveloped. For instance, ENTPs with very poor secondary Ti come off as Ne+Fe and tend to exhibit signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Without a strong introverted function by which to internally reconsider and evaluate one's own beliefs, one becomes entirely dependent upon external validation and suffers from serious self-image issues.

    Again the problem with this functional order, while it does exist, is that it lacks balance for two reasons:

    A) It doesn't have an introverted function available, and
    B) The tertiary function doesn't show the same potential for growth and development as the auxiliary, so not only are we stuck lacking a strong introverted function with Ne+Fe, we're stuck with Ne+poor Fe! The answer is to develop the auxiliary. This is how to achieve balance between the internal and external worlds and create a healthy self-image and productive lifestyle.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #54
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    451 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INFp Ni
    Posts
    1,373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You didn't have to. You implied it with this statement:
    Once again, you're ascribing thoughts to me that originate inside your own head. You take your understanding of how the functions work, and every time you hear someone talk about them, you filter their words through that understanding. When I talk about Pi and Pe being shared by a person and valued on a roughly equal level, I don't refer to those functions in a shallow, surface-level sense. I refer to those functions in their deepest, most developed capacities. You've rejected that idea to such an extent that whenever you hear someone say such a thing, you automatically assume that they must mean something other than what they said.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    If you hadn't noticed, it's my contention that that people are not patchworks of paradoxes at all, and that their behavior is far more rationally consistent and predictably in their own self-interest than many people seem to realize. If you really reduce people's value systems to their most fundamental components, you'll find that most people are actually quite consistent with themselves--not a so-called "patchwork of paradoxes." This interpretation is the result of poor understanding of other people's values and the true motivations for them.
    I think you're missing my point. I'm not so much making a psychological claim as I am a philosophical one. I apply that claim to the human realm only because the human realm exists under the rubric of reality, wherein everything is trivially contradictory and fundamentally unified.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    On top of that, your reasoning doesn't follow all. The fact that you find people to be "patchworks of paradoxes" (which I find questionable in the first place, but we'll get to that) doesn't serve as any indication that this particular paradox (having Ne and Ni as two primary functions, for instance) can actually exist.
    Take any paradox, and you can easily find ways to consolidate it. It's an extremely simple exercise, and one that's always possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    I don't believe that MBTI's 16 function molds are the ONLY ones that actually exist in practice, just that they're the most useful combinations in theory.
    Yes, but you consider certain combinations impossible. I take issue with this because I know from personal experience that what you say is untrue.

    EDIT: That's all I have to say, really. I hate to get involved in this kind of discussion, for several different reasons (which probably makes me a masochist).
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  5. #55
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    ^ This response shows enough of a lack of effort to grasp anything I've said that I'm not going to continue any further with you.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #56
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    xNFP
    Posts
    6,885

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    They completely disagree on what the source for one's ethical bearing should be.

    Fi says: I should draw my ethical principles from my own internal sense of what is ethical in a vacuum. Ethics would still exist as a fundamental property of the universe even if we were not here to think about them.

    Fe says: I should draw my ethical principles from what my community surroundings hold as important values. Ethics exist only as a means of fostering emotional connection between people so that they can work toward external goals together.

    The key is that to Fe, nothing is actually ethical until some external goal has been defined. If the goal is integrating into a given culture, then the methodology would clearly involve integration into that culture's moral and social norms. Fe's ethics change and adapt based on the emotional texture of its environment.

    Fi, on the other hand, sees ethics as private, personal and non-negotiable. It neither seeks nor requires any external validation, because it knows what is ethical and what is not, end of story.



    Yes, Fi is completely outside of my personal value system. Since I use Ti for my internal judgments, I find use of Feeling for internal judgments to be inappropriate and selfish. Sometimes my internal logic and another person's internal feelings will reach the same conclusion, but for totally different reasons.
    WHY would these necessarily be diametrically opposed, and WHY can't you have both?

    And how can you explain Fe > Ne > Te > Se? Theoretically, I should not be able to have all these in the top four, but I definitely do.

    I'm not saying "OOOOHHHH I'm sooooo special because I don't know what the hell I am!" It's actually quite frustrating, and I would just like to know what the truth is.

    Fact of the matter is: I don't know what I am because of the following reasons:

    First, an ENFP should have a great deal of Fi mixed in there, which I don't show. Although Ne and Te are strong, I exhibit almost no Si. In addition, I exhibit a great deal of organization and future-planning, which is kind of extreme and baffles most ENFPs I know. Others claim that my Fe is too strong to be ENFP, which annoys the crap out of the most ENFPs I have contact with. The recent argumentation for the so-called Te was that my organization and problem-solving, which may seem/appear to be Te in character is really extremely-organized Fe??? Some even claim they can't see my Ne and it's really Ni. Yeah, so most xNFPs say, "No, sorry, no can do. No ENFP here."

    However, most ENFJs and INTPs say "NO way, buster, no way in hell are you ENFJ." They don't see my Ni. They claim my Fe isn't high enough because I often bungle up certain things I SHOULD say in a given situation. In some situations I really care about what people think; in others, I couldn't give a crap (Fe/Fi). Apparently, I don't socialize enough nor do I like to give parties or host or whatever. Although my Fe and Se are strong, my Ni and Ti are non-existent. So they say PFFFT ENFJ - who are YOU kidding?

    I guess the fact that I'm borderline on everything really does not help matters. I'm literally 50/50 J/P and 50/50 T/F and 55/45 E/I and 60/40 N/S. I guess maybe I have an underdeveloped personality??? Who knows?

    Maybe I am totally something else, and no one has figured it out yet - like an ISTJ or INTJ whose weird shadow self is showing. That'd be amusing.

    Anyway, point being, I'm not ENFx because I think I'm so and but because I simply can't make heads or tails of my situation. So back down, and if you're so good at telling people's type, maybe you can make sense of this conglomeration of nonsense that calls itself Carolyn's Personality. 'Cause I sure as hell can't.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  7. #57

    Default

    Four dimensions help remove the contradictions in use of functions. It is not enough to say values or a certain drive is innate or fundamental. They are usually a reflection of the person's current understanding of the world and are highly dynamic. They may develop in certain ways because of the person's brand of cognitive processing, but you can't assume that they are the creature and not the shadow. An F type is not run by a set of values. They store information and understanding in a way which resembles them. Many types have similar values, they just express them differently as they have different cognitive approaches. Sometimes it is even just about what they see and understand or the way they comfortably approach problems.

    It's an interesting idea to float though. I've wanted to minimise this stuff also and clear up some of the conflicts. The P/J part is quite a problem, because no matter how you look at it in the Myers-Briggs scheme, you aren't going to be an N dominant who is half Ne and half Ni. It is clearly a weakness in the MBTi system if it is meant to map to Jungian processes.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  8. #58
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    One of the most common non-standard functional orders occurs when the secondary function is underdeveloped. For instance, ENTPs with very poor secondary Ti come off as Ne+Fe and tend to exhibit signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Without a strong introverted function by which to internally reconsider and evaluate one's own beliefs, one becomes entirely dependent upon external validation and suffers from serious self-image issues.

    Again the problem with this functional order, while it does exist, is that it lacks balance for two reasons:

    A) It doesn't have an introverted function available, and
    B) The tertiary function doesn't show the same potential for growth and development as the auxiliary, so not only are we stuck lacking a strong introverted function with Ne+Fe, we're stuck with Ne+poor Fe! The answer is to develop the auxiliary. This is how to achieve balance between the internal and external worlds and create a healthy self-image and productive lifestyle.
    This is very interesting, actually.

    Do you think that an INFJ with Ni+Ti would show symptoms of... say, Aspergers or something? The first psychologist I saw after being homeschooled since 3rd grade thought I had it, but then 3 years later after I'd been in school for a while, another psychologist said I probably didn't have it, but was borderline (because my improvement was much quicker than it should have been if I'd had the disorder). They said that in my case it could probably be blamed on poor parenting that encouraged my natural Introversion and paranoia rather than discouraging it, though.

    Is it possible that most psychological disorders are caused (partially) by people having unbalanced functional orders?

  9. #59
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    xNFP
    Posts
    6,885

    Default

    Anyway, I wasn't being facetious - I really would love to know what I am...It's just so confusing and none of it seems to make any sense. So I've basically said, "Awww, to hell with it," and put an x there even though neither really fits.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  10. #60
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    WHY would these necessarily be diametrically opposed, and WHY can't you have both?
    Already explained; read thread. Xi and Xe disagree on where the source of the values should come from: the self or the environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    And how can you explain Fe > Ne > Te > Se? Theoretically, I should not be able to have all these in the top four, but I definitely do.
    My interpretation of this is that you have a weak understanding of functional theory and don't know what you're talking about. I don't believe that your function order is Fe Ne Te Se. Where did you get this idea, a cognitive function "test"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    I'm not saying "OOOOHHHH I'm sooooo special because I don't know what the hell I am!" It's actually quite frustrating, and I would just like to know what the truth is.

    Fact of the matter is: I don't know what I am because of the following reasons:

    First, an ENFP should have a great deal of Fi mixed in there, which I don't show. Although Ne and Te are strong, I exhibit almost no Si. In addition, I exhibit a great deal of organization and future-planning, which is kind of extreme and baffles most ENFPs I know. Others claim that my Fe is too strong to be ENFP, which annoys the crap out of the most ENFPs I have contact with. The recent argumentation for the so-called Te was that my organization and problem-solving, which may seem/appear to be Te in character is really extremely-organized Fe??? Some even claim they can't see my Ne and it's really Ni. Yeah, so most xNFPs say, "No, sorry, no can do. No ENFP here."
    No offense, but you don't understand this because you don't understand the functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    However, most ENFJs and INTPs say "NO way, buster, no way in hell are you ENFJ." They don't see my Ni. They claim my Fe isn't high enough because I often bungle up certain things I SHOULD say in a given situation. In some situations I really care about what people think; in others, I couldn't give a crap (Fe/Fi). Apparently, I don't socialize enough nor do I like to give parties or host or whatever. Although my Fe and Se are strong, my Ni and Ti are non-existent. So they say PFFFT ENFJ - who are YOU kidding?
    They're probably right. Your thinking comes off as fragmented and non-linear, which is characteristically P.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    I guess the fact that I'm borderline on everything really does not help matters. I'm literally 50/50 J/P and 50/50 T/F and 55/45 E/I and 60/40 N/S. I guess maybe I have an underdeveloped personality??? Who knows?
    No, you're a perfect example of an ENFP who doesn't understand functional theory enough realize her own type/has a lot of misconceptions based on bad information from other uninformed people. Type "tests" are garbage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Maybe I am totally something else, and no one has figured it out yet - like an ISTJ or INTJ whose weird shadow self is showing. That'd be amusing.
    This part seems especially Ne. "But what if this or this or this or THIS?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Anyway, point being, I'm not ENFx because I think I'm so and but because I simply can't make heads or tails of my situation. So back down, and if you're so good at telling people's type, maybe you can make sense of this conglomeration of nonsense that calls itself Carolyn's Personality. 'Cause I sure as hell can't.
    Incredibly ENFP. The whole attraction to being different and unique and "defying categorization" isn't a conscious process, but it's very heavily linked to Ne's value system. You don't know enough typology to know what type you are but the prospect of being "something entirely DIFFERENT" is subconsciously attractive enough to you that you don't really bother to find out.

    If you did discover which mold you fit, you wouldn't be able to claim a special and unusual function order anymore...why, then you wouldn't be out of the box at all! And we can't have that...


    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Four dimensions help remove the contradictions in use of functions. It is not enough to say values or a certain drive is innate or fundamental. They are usually a reflection of the person's current understanding of the world and are highly dynamic. They may develop in certain ways because of the person's brand of cognitive processing, but you can't assume that they are the creature and not the shadow. An F type is not run by a set of values. They store information and understanding in a way which resembles them. Many types have similar values, they just express them differently as they have different cognitive approaches. Sometimes it is even just about what they see and understand or the way they comfortably approach problems. It's an interesting idea to float though. I've wanted to minimise this stuff also and clear up some of the conflicts. The P/J part is quite a problem, because no matter how you look at it in the Myers-Briggs scheme, you aren't going to be an N dominant who is half Ne and half Ni. It is clearly a weakness in the MBTi system if it is meant to map to Jungian processes.
    Fair points, but I think there are actually a lot more contradictions in the four-dichotomy MBTI system than in Jung's functions--like the P/J issue at the heart of this thread.

    My reasoning for thinking that people can't be half Ni and half Ne, though, has absolutely nothing to do with MBTI's function molds. It has everything to do with the fundamentally opposing values of those functions.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

Similar Threads

  1. Why Nobody Cares the President Is Lying
    By Z Buck McFate in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 04-23-2017, 09:54 AM
  2. Why Each Myers Briggs Stereotype is Actually False
    By CarolineForbes in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-09-2015, 06:29 AM
  3. Why Prayer is a SIN and affront to God
    By nozflubber in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 03-05-2009, 11:08 AM
  4. [ESTP] why ESTP is rarely present, or even talked?
    By niki in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 05-04-2008, 09:57 AM
  5. This is why incest is against the law...
    By The Ü™ in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-14-2007, 01:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO