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  1. #1
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Default How to communicate with an ExxJ

    This thread is to help people have better communications with the EJs in their life.

    I feel like understanding the motivations of dominant extroverted judgment are deeply misunderstood on this forum and there isn't as much thought invested in what it means to be a dominant extroverted judger. EJs are often seen one dimensionally and their motivations tend to primarily be portrayed as mechanism of controlling other people against their will.

    ExxJs are not one monolithic group anymore than INs are. ExFJs/ExTJs and ESxJs/ENxJs all have different things that make our toes tap and hearts swell. There are very important distinctions just as there are many similarities. One question that repeatedly pops up in my mind is why do I have so little difficulties with the ExxJs I know? I think one of the answers is the way EJs communicate I don't necessarily perceive as controlling or dictatorial. When I see a situation being brought to closure, I find that reassuring and competent if my need for information is satisfied and I feel the conclusion that's reached is beneficial for as many people as possible and solves the problem.

    Te and Fe use commonly agreed upon standards and definitions to make decisions and deduce logic. That does not mean a Dom Te and Fe automatically follows or doesn't deviate from what that standard is, but is does imply that they more attuned to what it is. Sometimes, when you know exactly what that standard is, you can manipulate it, exploit it, or break it with greater ease than those who don't or don't know what they did "wrong" to get into the predicament they are in. On the other side, I think this contributes greatly to a common EJ mindset of "who's gonna stop me?/You and what army?" that people complain about. Standards also differ from community to community, situation to situation, and during different time periods. IOW, I think an ESFJ from Hinterlands, Iowa is going to look and present differently than an ESFJ from New York City, and beyond.

    Dom Te and Fe also look very different depending on what introverted perceiving function is fueling it, but I think that many people often conflate cultural Te and Fe with Si.

    So now that I'm done with my rambling add or ask anything feel free and I'd like to add I'm well acquainted with the problems people have with EJs so like I said, the purpose of this thread is to understand why an ExxJ may think the way the do. Of course, no one can look into crystal ball and figure out exactly how another's mind works but this thread may lead to some answers.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #2
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    It gets tough after a while, because many here like to view us through a (IMHO) narrow lens that doesn't lend itself to understanding the EJ as a multifaceted person.

    Since there aren't as many EJ's on the site as other types, it is easy for this perception to spread. Once it has, it almost seems like a fruitless battle to try and dispel the myths about us. And even when we do try, the common argument that follows goes something like "Your an EXTJ, you don't care anyway so stop complaining" (I have generally found that the tendency to stereotype EJ's is most likely when the member in question is a EXTJ). Which, while partially true, doesn't provide (unless you live in the narnia of logical reasoning) a valid excuse for the commonly accepted stereotyping that goes on. The worst part about this, in my mind at least, is I see these views occasionally espoused by (one or two of) the moderators.

    If this was happening to the INTP's, or INFP's, or whoever else, the board would be up in arms (mostly due to the skewed distribution of the types on this forum b/c it's on the internet). Just because there are fewer of us, and we generally care less about what the masses think of us, does NOT mean that it doesn't bother us when we are continually painted as Atilla the F**king Hun.

    While, given our extroverted nature, it is easier for the other types to have had negative experiences with under developed EJ's in their personal real world lives, it seems that members act with giddy enthusiasm when assuming that the EJ's on this board have the same negative traits they have experienced in RL.

    If you want someone to act like an animal, all you need to do is cage them.

    It seems that we have been caged by the general membership's opinion of us, and thereby it seems like we are more likely to act in accordance with these norms b/c we can't change the way everyone thinks anyway.:steam:

    I have more thoughts on the subject but need to get back to reading family law.

  3. #3
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    This is interesting.

    I know a few (MBTI tested) EXXJs.
    My Dad = ESTJ
    My Ex-Girlfriend = ENFJ
    Childhood friend (female) = ESTJ

    I suspect that my Father-in-law is ESFJ or ESTJ, but haven't had him tested yet.

    Basically, here's my take on the EXXJ's I know.

    They are systematic.

    They are well intended.

    They observe and recognize existing rule sets but if given the opportunity to have influence will gladly promote their own ideology.

    They are neat freaks.

    They are vain in their own right, but I perceive it as more of a refelction of their internal self-confidence, rather than vanity for the sake of being a peacock, of making others feel bad.

    All ESTJ's I know, both exhibit alpha male/female tendencies.

    I have read in a few places that ESTJ and ESTP are the two types most predisposed to being control freaks.

    The one's I know are actually quick to anger, but just as quick to forgive.

    They are very funny people if you get to know them.

    That's all I've got for now.

  4. #4
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Be explicit, if you aren't accurately representing your thoughts or feelings then we need to figure it out ourselves. (We're not great at this)

    This reliance on ourselves to figure out what others are thinking is a loss to everyone, essentially you're handing yourself over to Ni or Si to be categorized.

    Ever notice how ENFJs will get insulted for seemingly no reason? That's a result of limited or inaccurate information regarding the intentions of individuals.

    Ever notice how ESTJs will give you answers to questions you didn't ask and directions for things you know how to do? ditto.

    ENTJs turning everything into an attack on ideas you don't even have but find yourself arguing for anyway? same thing

    I'm not trying to take the "blame" away from EJs.

    It will benefit everyone if information can be spread more efficiently.
    wails from the crypt.

  5. #5
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    This is interesting.

    I know a few (MBTI tested) EXXJs.
    My Dad = ESTJ
    My Ex-Girlfriend = ENFJ
    Childhood friend (female) = ESTJ

    I suspect that my Father-in-law is ESFJ or ESTJ, but haven't had him tested yet.

    Basically, here's my take on the EXXJ's I know.

    They are systematic.

    They are well intended.

    They observe and recognize existing rule sets but if given the opportunity to have influence will gladly promote their own ideology.

    They are neat freaks.

    They are vain in their own right, but I perceive it as more of a reflection of their internal self-confidence, rather than vanity for the sake of being a peacock, of making others feel bad.

    All ESTJ's I know, both exhibit alpha male/female tendencies.
    Wife is an ENTJ. Definitely demonstrates Alpha Female qualities - especially while at work. She's had more than a few people confess their intimidation; often to her bewilderment (sometimes it's intentional... ).

    She's just "getting the job done" (her words) and generally doesn't mean to trample folks underfoot.

    Oh, and all your bullet points are correct, Halla. Absolutely correct.

    Big fan of ENTJs.

  6. #6
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    My ex - ESTJ
    Two of my best friends are ENTJ.

    I think both are extremely loyal people. True to their friends. They want things to be exact and precise. This includes communication. They both can't stand liars or people who try to use "white" lies to get around the truth. (Be blunt - it's okay). I can't say enough good things about these types. They have their weakness like every other type do but I think a lot of their "negative" stereotypes on this forum is due to the fact that most people are probably interacting with them on a co-worker/boss relationship. They are very different outside of their jobs.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  7. #7
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It gets tough after a while, because many here like to view us through a (IMHO) narrow lens that doesn't lend itself to understanding the EJ as a multifaceted person.

    Since there aren't as many EJ's on the site as other types, it is easy for this perception to spread. Once it has, it almost seems like a fruitless battle to try and dispel the myths about us. And even when we do try, the common argument that follows goes something like "Your an EXTJ, you don't care anyway so stop complaining" (I have generally found that the tendency to stereotype EJ's is most likely when member in question is a EXTJ). Which, while partially true, doesn't provide (unless you live in the narnia of logical reasoning) a valid excuse for the commonly accepted stereotyping that goes on. The worst part about this, in my mind at least, is I see these views occasionally espoused by (one or two of) the moderators.

    If this was happening to the INTP's, or INFP's, or whoever else, the board would be up in arms (mostly due to the skewed distribution of the types on this forum b/c it's on the internet). Just because there are fewer of us, and we generally care less about what the masses think of us, does NOT mean that it doesn't bother us when we are continually painted as Atilla the F**king Hun.

    While, given our extroverted nature, it is easier for the other types to have had negative experiences with under developed EJ's in their personal real world lives, it seems that members act with giddy enthusiasm when assuming that the EJ's on this board have the same negative traits they have experienced in RL.

    I you want someone to act like an animal, all you need to do is cage them.

    It seems that we have been caged by the general membership's opinion of us, and thereby it seems like we are more likely to act in accordance with these norms b/c we can't change the way everyone thinks anyway.:steam:

    I have more thoughts on the subject but need to get back to reading family law.
    I love ya...

    ... but you realize that people are coming here to find out positive information in order to understand you better, and instead you basically posted a rant about what you're upset about?

    It's just sort of affirming the negatives some people haven't yet risen above.

    I want to hear more about how you FUNCTION.
    Work the thread, baby!
    People are listening!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #8
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This thread is to help people have better communications with the EJs in their life.

    ExxJs are not one monolithic group anymore than INs are. ExFJs/ExTJs and ESxJs/ENxJs all have different things that make our toes tap and hearts swell. There are very important distinctions just as there are many similarities.
    Important point. Lumping ExxJ's and behaviors together (while there are certainly commonalities) would be analagous to putting the INFJ's, ISTJ's, INTJ's, and ISFJ's on the same playing field, with same sorts of motivations - something we obviously don't do on this forum.

    One question that repeatedly pops up in my mind is why do I have so little difficulties with the ExxJs I know? I think one of the answers is the way EJs communicate I don't necessarily perceive as controlling or dictatorial. When I see a situation being brought to closure, I find that reassuring and competent if my need for information is satisfied and I feel the conclusion that's reached is beneficial for as many people as possible and solves the problem.
    The bolded is very important. I tend not to perceive ExxJ communication as controlling, either. It all boils down to ones preferred communication mode, which is why P's would tend to find the ExxJ approach more abrasive.

    Also, I think many people misconstrue intent/motivation behind a said behavior. An ISTP might bristle at an ENTJ comment because if the ISTP were to say the comment himself, it would have a very different intent behind it. Thus the ISTP might project what would be his own motivations onto the ExxJ - quite in error. (this is just an example, don't read into it too much)

    Te and Fe use commonly agreed upon standards and definitions to make decisions and deduce logic. That does not mean a Dom Te and Fe automatically follows or doesn't deviate from what that standard is, but is does imply that they more attuned to what it is. Sometimes, when you know exactly what that standard is, you can manipulate it, exploit it, or break it with greater ease than those who don't or don't know what they did "wrong" to get into the predicament they are in. On the other side, I think this contributes greatly to a common EJ mindset of "who's gonna stop me?/You and what army?" that people complain about. Standards also differ from community to community, situation to situation, and during different time periods. IOW, I think an ESFJ from Hinterlands, Iowa is going to look and present differently than an ESFJ from New York City, and beyond.
    Yup, good points.

    Dom Te and Fe also look very different depending on what introverted perceiving function is fueling it, but I think that many people often conflate cultural Te and Fe with Si.
    I would agree. There is less of an understanding of dominant Te with aux Ni, and dominant Fe with aux Ni. Te behaviors often get stereotyped as they are associated with Si, and Fe behaviors with Si.

    Being a J myself (and close friends with 2 ENTJ's), I don't think I get as put off with ExxJ behavior/communication as some might; actually I find my ENTJ friends quite refreshing. But, I think you have started an excellent thread. It would be cool if people came in with questions/problems/issues.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #9
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I think I should trick people in by calling it "How to communicate with an INFJ" or "ENFP INTJ!!11!!" and watch the replies pour in.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  10. #10
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I think I should trick people in by calling it "How to communicate with an INFJ" or "ENFP INTJ!!11!!" and watch the replies pour in.


    Honestly, I'm finding it difficult to instruct people on how to communicate with ExxJ's, because I don't find it difficult. haha.

    I think my ENTJ friends value closure/plans a bit more than I, and can become more stressed out in the absence of that, but I don't have a problem with that. Our actual conversations are much more Ni-driven. I dunno, I guess my J-ness impedes my ability to have a 'problem' with them or their thought-processes or communication style. I can try to come up more constructive things, but at the moment I'm at a loss as to the ExxJ hate.

    I think as you allude to in the OP, people (mostly INxx's) tend to have more angst towards ESxJ's; perhaps understandably, seeing as ESxJ's approach/prioritize things quite differently than the INxx, but communication-wise, just remembering their desire for completion, for wanting things more defined and organized, and placing value on processes that typically have a logical/rational reason for having been put in place to begin with, might make it a bit easier. And you already pointed out that just because Te/Fe tends to value processes as they are, does NOT mean the Te/Fe-dom is blind to other alternatives. They could be the optimal ones to work the system the best, and most efficiently.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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