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  1. #1
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Default (Si) Sensotardation [vs. (Se) Sensotardation]

    So Iím trying to understand Si and what (Si) sensotardation might look like. And I think Iíve come up with an example. Iíd appreciate any opinions about how accurate or inaccurate this example is.

    I think I need to start with an example of (Se) sensotardation for comparison. Sometimes when Iím driving over a long stretch, the sun sets without my noticing and: Iíll either forget to take off my sunglasses, forget to turn on the headlights, or forget to do both- then Iíll struggle to see until someone points it out to me. Sometimes I notice it on my own, but usually only after struggling with it for a short while; I only notice the discomfort of Ďstruggling to seeí on my own when it gets really difficult.

    In that same vein- I think (Si) sensotarded events sneak up on me in a very similar way. The example that comes to mind is the tendency I have to take things too seriously (and from what Iíve heard/read, itís a common problem for INFJs). Iíll just be going about my business and a generally heavy feeling will start weighing me down. I mean, itís kind of ridiculous- because sometimes all it takes is having someone say, ďYou are taking this too seriouslyĒ for me to realize that itís the truth. Yet- when left to my own devices, itís something that systematically escapes my notice.

    Is this (Si) sensotardation? I realize that it isnít exclusively Si- thatís itís a matter of different functions working together- but often times one particularly weak function can contribute to the collective process yielding inaccurate results. So, does the experience of Ďnot noticing that I am taking something too seriouslyí sound primarily like a result of weak Si?

    Iíve considered that Fi must have a role in this as well. But it *seems* to me like itís not so much an Fi issue (at the core) as it is a weak Si affecting/agitating my Fi.

    Opinions?

    **Also: can anyone contribute other examples of (Se) sensotardation vs. (Si) sensotardation, to help distinguish the difference between the two? Again- I realize itís tricky because itís never a case of one function working (or not working) in isolation- even my Ďsunglasses/headlightsí (Se) sensotardation example bears traces of (Si) sensotardation (I suppose if it happens on a regular basis, itís more an example of (Si) sensotardation, right?).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #2
    Senior Member Engler's Avatar
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    I've always been under the impression that underdeveloped Si (i.e. Si sensotardation) results in dangerously inconsistent behavior, extreme impracticality, and the inability to retain data.

    In fact, it's always seemed to me that solemnity can be attributed to introverted judging functions (such as Si).
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  3. #3
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engler View Post
    I've always been under the impression that underdeveloped Si (i.e. Si sensotardation) results in dangerously inconsistent behavior, extreme impracticality, and the inability to retain data.

    In fact, it's always seemed to me that solemnity can be attributed to introverted judging functions (such as Si).
    I donít personally know any Si doms very well- which is mainly why I posted this here, hoping to get some Si dom feedback. That being said: from what Iíve read, I gather that Si doms can tend to be somewhat rigid about details in their environment- they know which details in their direct environment affect them positively (and/or negatively) and they tend to be stubborn about maintaining (or avoiding) contact with said details. They supposedly crave the Ďtried and trueí experiences (with people, places, etc). Could this rigidity be the ďsolemnityĒ youíre referring to?

    And I guess I can see how an underdeveloped Si could lead more action-oriented people toward dangerous behavior and/or extreme impracticality. If someone isnít aware of the extent to which something in their direct environment affects them negatively, theyíre less likely to be wary of it. Iím not sure which function dom this would be referring to- but I suspect Si deficiency works differently in a Ni dom.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  4. #4
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    First off, excellent, excellent thread topic. Finally some actual discussion about the theory.

    In that same vein- I think (Si) sensotarded events sneak up on me in a very similar way. The example that comes to mind is the tendency I have to take things too seriously (and from what Iíve heard/read, itís a common problem for INFJs). Iíll just be going about my business and a generally heavy feeling will start weighing me down. I mean, itís kind of ridiculous- because sometimes all it takes is having someone say, ďYou are taking this too seriouslyĒ for me to realize that itís the truth. Yet- when left to my own devices, itís something that systematically escapes my notice.
    This sounds like a lack of extroverted sensing and not introverted sensing.

    When you need a wake up to see reality like this, it's because you're stuck in NiTi mode and you're blind to what's actually before you (I'm guessing). You aren't taking in the external tangible factors and you aren't taking in all of the relevant facts in the situation rather than what's brewing in your head. That would be a lack of Extroverted Sensing.

    More on Se sensotardation- as I said before failing to look around and see what's actually there rather than what you're thinking about and what your personal impressions are. Other things I've observed are Se-tards seem resistant to taking action in their daily lives. When I start talking about things that need to be done with Ns, particularly IN__ people, they just seem to say "yeah I'll do it later", they just seem to be resistant to actually doing anything. IN__ people also don't really like to push people I've noticed, they are bad at motivating people to do things by "forcing" them to, by exerting themselves mentally (I imagine some INTJs are exempt from this, especially the highly integrated 5's who have many 8 traits with that Te).

    I think that you've pretty much got it otherwise with the things that you experience like the thing with the sun setting.

    As for Si sensotardation, look at EN_Ps. They have pretty bad short term memory and don't pick up on random details, they just get the gist of what someone is saying or of a situation. They seem to improvise almost everything, they hate bringing up the past. It just seems to manifest itself in having a really bad short term memory (unless it's something that has a profound effect on them, and even then it is still fuzzy to them) and paying little to no attention to detail. When people nit pick EN_Ps about details they very quickly get very annoyed and frustrated, since it's an apparent weakness. With ENFPs they get more emotional and angry, with ENTPs they get more aggressive and ruthless and less tactful towards the person. EN_Ps also don't really seem to learn from the past unless it's a pattern that they notice with Ne.

    Just a few random observations.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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    (blankpages) Xenon's Avatar
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    I've been reading some of the threads at the top and trying to become more familiar with functions, and this seems like a good thread for going over a few sensing examples. One of the first threads I read here when I was lurking was the Sensotard moments thread. Most of them seem like obvious failures of Se, since they involve people failing to notice something right in front of them, and completely obvious to anyone else. I can see how these moments would get the biggest laughs, and that's why the thread was so fun to read about.

    I'll post some examples from the thread that don't seem like clear cut Se failures, and perhaps people can give their opinions.

    From Tallulah:
    I'll forget how far I am into the showering process and have to start completely over because I was daydreaming.
    Is this more of a Si-tard moment (short-term memory failure?) or a Se-tard moment (not paying attention to what was happening in the first place?) Could it be either, or both?

    Several posters mentioned forgetting to eat, and this seems like both to me, because it requires lack of attention both to your present state of hunger (Se) and to the day's schedule and what is supposed to happen when (Si).

    Some of CaptainChick's examples seem like pretty clear Si-tard moments:
    - I forget the day, the month, and sadly, yes, even the year sometimes. I rarely, if ever know the date. (LOL, does this even qualify as a sensotardation?)

    - Birthdays, holidays, "special days", they tend to slip my mind.

    - I AM GOD-AWFUL AT LABORATORY EXPERIMENTS!!!

    - Other than strictly kinesthetic pursuits, I can never learn anything by doing "hands-on" application.
    The first two I'd say definitely relate to Si. The last two examples aren't so clear: there might be some Ti difficulty in there as well (I've read Ti has to do with learning by doing, or interacting with information).

    Anyone have thoughts on these, or other examples?

    Personally I have a lot more problems with Se. My Si use isn't bad at all. And as Jeffster described, I do have some serious problems with failing to take action in my life, especially new and unfamiliar action.

  6. #6
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    This sounds like a lack of extroverted sensing and not introverted sensing.
    When you need a wake up to see reality like this, it's because you're stuck in NiTi mode and you're blind to what's actually before you (I'm guessing). You aren't taking in the external tangible factors and you aren't taking in all of the relevant facts in the situation rather than what's brewing in your head. That would be a lack of Extroverted Sensing.

    More on Se sensotardation- as I said before failing to look around and see what's actually there rather than what you're thinking about and what your personal impressions are. Other things I've observed are Se-tards seem resistant to taking action in their daily lives. When I start talking about things that need to be done with Ns, particularly IN__ people, they just seem to say "yeah I'll do it later", they just seem to be resistant to actually doing anything. IN__ people also don't really like to push people I've noticed, they are bad at motivating people to do things by "forcing" them to, by exerting themselves mentally (I imagine some INTJs are exempt from this, especially the highly integrated 5's who have many 8 traits with that Te).

    I think that you've pretty much got it otherwise with the things that you experience like the thing with the sun setting.

    As for Si sensotardation, look at EN_Ps. They have pretty bad short term memory and don't pick up on random details, they just get the gist of what someone is saying or of a situation. They seem to improvise almost everything, they hate bringing up the past. It just seems to manifest itself in having a really bad short term memory (unless it's something that has a profound effect on them, and even then it is still fuzzy to them) and paying little to no attention to detail. When people nit pick EN_Ps about details they very quickly get very annoyed and frustrated, since it's an apparent weakness. With ENFPs they get more emotional and angry, with ENTPs they get more aggressive and ruthless and less tactful towards the person. EN_Ps also don't really seem to learn from the past unless it's a pattern that they notice with Ne.
    I want to state for the record, again, all I understand about Si is that which Iíve read in books. So Iím not trying to be argumentative, Iím just trying to marry the facts Iíve read with the descriptions presented in this here forum.

    Being aware of an emotion I am experiencing in the present moment is part of the Si function, right? I thought that Se was about noticing objective details, apart from any subjective affect evoked by those details. The Se function is engaged when we are focused on those objective details. But our Si is engaged when the focus shifts to our subjective experience of those details. Even though much of the affect we experience from some present detail is a result of past experiences- Si is about being aware of the emotional state we are currently experiencing. Am I wrong about this?

    I recognize the Si-tard examples you mentioned for a Ne dom. I lived with an ENFP for close to ten years and witnessed total Ne dom Si-tardation in its full glory. Every day was brand new; he had very little recall of past experiences, hated bringing up the past and he was a master of improvisation. It earned him the nicknames ĎJive Turkeyí and ĎCaptain Superlativeí (being unable to rate according to past experiences, everything was either the Ďbest everí or Ďworst everí).

    Isnít it possible, though, that underdeveloped Si could exhibit differently in a Ni dom? It just seems to me that I am sometimes so focused on the potential of a situation that I completely lose sight of how the actual situation is affecting me. Itís almost a vicious cycle really- the more unpleasantly my direct environment affects me, the more I focus on the future and potentials. With taking things too seriously- Iíll get really grumpy and serious without even realizing it. It really does take another person- usually someone asking if they did something to make me angry- to make me realize Iíve become grumpy in the first place. Because this involves (lack of) awareness of a present emotional state, rather than awareness of objective details in the immediate environment- wouldnít it be more (Si) sensotarded?

    And blankpages: Iíve never made it through the entire ďSensotardĒ thread, but this post was my favorite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    yesterday morning i was flossing my teeth... when i was finished, instead of throwing away the used floss, i set it on the counter and proceeded to chuck the entire floss dispenser in the toilet
    Iím voting on this, and the one you quoted by Tallulah about the shower, both being primarily Se-tarded.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  7. #7
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Being aware of an emotion I am experiencing in the present moment is part of the Si function, right? I thought that Se was about noticing objective details, apart from any subjective affect evoked by those details. The Se function is engaged when we are focused on those objective details. But our Si is engaged when the focus shifts to our subjective experience of those details. Even though much of the affect we experience from some present detail is a result of past experiences- Si is about being aware of the emotional state we are currently experiencing. Am I wrong about this?
    I was under the impression that people with good Fi were good with knowing their own emotional states, and that Si was good with understanding your physical bodily state among the other things sensory related that it does.

    Isnít it possible, though, that underdeveloped Si could exhibit differently in a Ni dom?
    Well of course, but I don't think that what you're experiencing is a lack of Si per se... but who am I to tell you that.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  8. #8
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Si is mostly about comparisons to your surroundings. It's about taking what you know about a situation and comparing it to what's actually going on. I think my heavy introversion causes Se-tard moments for myself. I get lost in my head, just enough to detach myself from my surroundings, but enough to be able to know what's going on around me. However, there are plenty of times where I just miss things going on around me because I'm in my head.

    I'm thinking Si-tard moments are mostly when you just neglect to do the comparison. Most of my Se-tard moments are when I start to make mistakes because I'm lost in my head, like at work checking out customers. I think this is actually more Si. Every customer has the same routine to follow. Greet them, ring up their stuff, get their money, bag stuff, tell them to go away, rinse and repeat. The Si-tard moments are when I forget to like, get them to sign a receipt or bag an item.

    Like for instance, an example of Si was right now, replying to this thread. Every morning I check forums, and I don't ever expect many replies in the mornings. However, I just refreshed this thread and saw a reply while I typed this. I thought, "Hmm, a reply, that doesn't normally happen. There might be some more general behavior going on here that might be unexpected." It's Si that pops up like that and tells me, "What's happening right now is not what normally happens." Putting it like that, it's more like Si pops up, tells me something is off, and then dispatches Te to put me on guard.

    I like Si a lot more for my ability to recall. I always wondered how people forgot things that happened in their life. I thought, what were you doing while you did it? It's YOUR life, you can't remember the details? WTF? ><


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    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Okay ... let me think ...


    As long as I'm not lost in my own thoughts (a frequent occurrence), I'm pretty good at seeing what's in front of me. However, I'm not good at remembering what I've seen.


    I'm terrible at remembering small details or noticing them in the first place ... yet, I'll remember random things that no one expects me to remember.


    I'm bad with exact quotes.


    In some ways, my memory is impeccable. In other ways, it's horrific.


    I understand my memory about as much as I understand my feelings, which is not much.

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    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    First off, excellent, excellent thread topic. Finally some actual discussion about the theory.



    This sounds like a lack of extroverted sensing and not introverted sensing.

    When you need a wake up to see reality like this, it's because you're stuck in NiTi mode and you're blind to what's actually before you (I'm guessing). You aren't taking in the external tangible factors and you aren't taking in all of the relevant facts in the situation rather than what's brewing in your head. That would be a lack of Extroverted Sensing.

    More on Se sensotardation- as I said before failing to look around and see what's actually there rather than what you're thinking about and what your personal impressions are. Other things I've observed are Se-tards seem resistant to taking action in their daily lives. When I start talking about things that need to be done with Ns, particularly IN__ people, they just seem to say "yeah I'll do it later", they just seem to be resistant to actually doing anything. IN__ people also don't really like to push people I've noticed, they are bad at motivating people to do things by "forcing" them to, by exerting themselves mentally (I imagine some INTJs are exempt from this, especially the highly integrated 5's who have many 8 traits with that Te).

    I think that you've pretty much got it otherwise with the things that you experience like the thing with the sun setting.

    As for Si sensotardation, look at EN_Ps. They have pretty bad short term memory and don't pick up on random details, they just get the gist of what someone is saying or of a situation. They seem to improvise almost everything, they hate bringing up the past. It just seems to manifest itself in having a really bad short term memory (unless it's something that has a profound effect on them, and even then it is still fuzzy to them) and paying little to no attention to detail. When people nit pick EN_Ps about details they very quickly get very annoyed and frustrated, since it's an apparent weakness. With ENFPs they get more emotional and angry, with ENTPs they get more aggressive and ruthless and less tactful towards the person. EN_Ps also don't really seem to learn from the past unless it's a pattern that they notice with Ne.

    Just a few random observations.
    Yeah. This stuff.

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