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  1. #11
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    Okay ... let me think ...


    As long as I'm not lost in my own thoughts (a frequent occurrence), I'm pretty good at seeing what's in front of me. However, I'm not good at remembering what I've seen.


    I'm terrible at remembering small details or noticing them in the first place ... yet, I'll remember random things that no one expects me to remember.


    I'm bad with exact quotes.


    In some ways, my memory is impeccable. In other ways, it's horrific.


    I understand my memory about as much as I understand my feelings, which is not much.
    Don't worry, Fe is completely lost on me. I can only mimic Fe by imitating what I see other FJs doing by using Si + Te.


  2. #12
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
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    Okay, I had this crazy dream this morning, I continually forgot important little details, names of people, and confused the specifics of where people wanted me to go... and there was one point at which I turned up at the wrong place, and suddenly lost track of the entire day and it went dark, and I was just lost. For the entire dream, I felt... well, terrible. I've had to deal with that shit my whole life, for example, I can't keep track of anything in my hands... and hence lost my wallet twice in the same week (the first was found by a nice woman that yelled at me, the second I never got it back :\ ). I can remember things like theories, it's more about keeping track of everything. There's Sitardation for ya... and I wouldn't have realized what it was without that weird dream...
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King-Of-Despair View Post
    Okay, I had this crazy dream this morning, I continually forgot important little details, names of people, and confused the specifics of where people wanted me to go... and there was one point at which I turned up at the wrong place, and suddenly lost track of the entire day and it went dark, and I was just lost. For the entire dream, I felt... well, terrible. (snip...) I can remember things like theories, it's more about keeping track of everything. There's Sitardation for ya... and I wouldn't have realized what it was without that weird dream...
    Oh shit, this is eerily recognisable... Thanks for sharing!

    I've had a lot of these terribly stressful dreams in the years where I was depressed and felt I was loosing myself and was hopeless in general.

    The dreams were a little different each time, but it was always the same haunted feeling of "I'm-late-and-lost-and-keep-losing-things". Sometimes also running around lost halfnaked or having the wrong clothes and not able to find the right ones or no time to look for them because I have to be on the move. Often I'd be rushing around over-packed with suitcases and bags and important stuff I kept loosing track of or were much too much to carry or were the wrong things with no way to get to the right things. Being late and wrongly equipped and not able to find where I'm going to or who or what I was supposed to be looking for, running around like a headless chicken.

    Some were real nightmares, like having my baby-son in a suitcase, the suitcase on a bus and the bus driving away without me, me running after it trying to remember where it was headed to and not knowing how to get there first.
    Some were just exhausting and I'd wake up all stressed and feeling hugely inadeaquate. The dreams became fewer as my depression went away and they are very rare these days. Don't miss them AT ALL!

    Interesting if this subconscious stress is an expression of aspirational / inferior / disturbing Si in ENxPs. At least when we are not feeling strong in our Ne-Fi (Te) core.

  4. #14
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    First off, excellent, excellent thread topic. Finally some actual discussion about the theory.



    This sounds like a lack of extroverted sensing and not introverted sensing.

    When you need a wake up to see reality like this, it's because you're stuck in NiTi mode and you're blind to what's actually before you (I'm guessing). You aren't taking in the external tangible factors and you aren't taking in all of the relevant facts in the situation rather than what's brewing in your head. That would be a lack of Extroverted Sensing.

    More on Se sensotardation- as I said before failing to look around and see what's actually there rather than what you're thinking about and what your personal impressions are. Other things I've observed are Se-tards seem resistant to taking action in their daily lives. When I start talking about things that need to be done with Ns, particularly IN__ people, they just seem to say "yeah I'll do it later", they just seem to be resistant to actually doing anything. IN__ people also don't really like to push people I've noticed, they are bad at motivating people to do things by "forcing" them to, by exerting themselves mentally (I imagine some INTJs are exempt from this, especially the highly integrated 5's who have many 8 traits with that Te).

    I think that you've pretty much got it otherwise with the things that you experience like the thing with the sun setting.

    As for Si sensotardation, look at EN_Ps. They have pretty bad short term memory and don't pick up on random details, they just get the gist of what someone is saying or of a situation. They seem to improvise almost everything, they hate bringing up the past. It just seems to manifest itself in having a really bad short term memory (unless it's something that has a profound effect on them, and even then it is still fuzzy to them) and paying little to no attention to detail. When people nit pick EN_Ps about details they very quickly get very annoyed and frustrated, since it's an apparent weakness. With ENFPs they get more emotional and angry, with ENTPs they get more aggressive and ruthless and less tactful towards the person. EN_Ps also don't really seem to learn from the past unless it's a pattern that they notice with Ne.

    Just a few random observations.
    I think you make a lot of great observations!

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate
    Being aware of an emotion I am experiencing in the present moment is part of the Si function, right? I thought that Se was about noticing objective details, apart from any subjective affect evoked by those details. The Se function is engaged when we are focused on those objective details. But our Si is engaged when the focus shifts to our subjective experience of those details. Even though much of the affect we experience from some present detail is a result of past experiences- Si is about being aware of the emotional state we are currently experiencing. Am I wrong about this?
    I don't think I've ever associated Si with awareness of emotional state. Si is more about data-gathering, comparing what's there and contrasting it to what you already know or from the past -- it's analogous to Ni, just a different focus of data/perception.

    Honestly, this is a reason I don't take cognitive functions terribly seriously these days. All of the 'theory' is well and good, but if you dig into it a lot you'll find many contradictions. And trying to pinpoint an isolated cognitive function to an isolated behavior/tendency isn't a great approach, because all of this stuff tends to be interconnected.

    Also...I think it is quite possible to make an argument for any single behavior using any of the functions - just throw the words 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' into the mix and you can justify yourself or anyone else using any of the 8 functions. Another example of this - just look at the people who consider themselves one type on here for many months, building all sorts of arguments for why they're using such-and-such functions for such and such behavior or perception, and then they change their type and can make a whole different set of arguments to justify their personality using a different set of functions. Not directed at anyone, as it applies to several people on the site - just something I think about now and then. It's interesting.
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  5. #15
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    I was under the impression that people with good Fi were good with knowing their own emotional states, and that Si was good with understanding your physical bodily state among the other things sensory related that it does.
    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I don't think I've ever associated Si with awareness of emotional state. Si is more about data-gathering, comparing what's there and contrasting it to what you already know or from the past -- it's analogous to Ni, just a different focus of data/perception.
    This is what I’m having trouble understanding about Si. The descriptions I’ve read vary on this distinction. All the online definitions of Si that I’ve found tend to omit any inclusion of ‘affect’ in the data that gets ‘collected and compared to past experiences’- but I haven’t seen any explicitly exclude it either.

    As for offline sources, both books I have about functions do clearly state that ‘affect’ is part of that Si data.

    From Lenore Thompson’s ‘Owner’s Manual’:

    “Introverted Sensation gives us the will to accumulate information- names, dates, numbers, statistics, references, guidelines and so forth- related to the things that matter to us. And this is an important qualification. Such facts are highly selective, an attribute perhaps easiest to see in our stereotypes about gender. [She compares the information a woman might remember to that which a man might remember.]
    The point is not to indulge in sexist generalizations but to emphasize that the facts we acquire by way of Introverted Sensation are more than information. They’re part of our self-experience. They define the specific nature of our passions and interests. They become our basis for taking in new data.”
    And this is from Gary & Margaret Hartzler’s “Functions of Type”:

    “…the Conservator [Si] in each of us is sensitive to what is going on in our own bodies. The Conservator knows when we are hungry, when we have had enough to eat, when we are sleepy, and, most importantly, what our emotional state is. It readily recognizes both joy and frustration, both the highs and lows of everyday life. People with this awareness don’t realize that others don’t have this awareness.
    The Conservator remembers both the details about a situation and his subjective internal reaction to it.”
    So- that's why I'm confused about whether or not 'affect' is part of that Si 'data'.


    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Honestly, this is a reason I don't take cognitive functions terribly seriously these days. All of the 'theory' is well and good, but if you dig into it a lot you'll find many contradictions. And trying to pinpoint an isolated cognitive function to an isolated behavior/tendency isn't a great approach, because all of this stuff tends to be interconnected.
    Yeah, I did mention this in the op. It’s never a matter of one function working in isolation. I’m inclined to think the way an underdeveloped function plays in the collaborative process is going to vary according to an individual’s hierarchy of functions- and even then it’s probably going to vary even further according to individuals. But I also think that probing into it reveals some interesting correlations.


    I see your point about taking it too seriously. But when it isn't taken too seriously, all the 'theory' can be a helpful means to better understanding ourselves and other people. IMO, anyway.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  6. #16
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Also...I think it is quite possible to make an argument for any single behavior using any of the functions - just throw the words 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' into the mix and you can justify yourself or anyone else using any of the 8 functions. Another example of this - just look at the people who consider themselves one type on here for many months, building all sorts of arguments for why they're using such-and-such functions for such and such behavior or perception, and then they change their type and can make a whole different set of arguments to justify their personality using a different set of functions. Not directed at anyone, as it applies to several people on the site - just something I think about now and then. It's interesting.

  7. #17
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blankpages View Post
    Is this more of a Si-tard moment (short-term memory failure?) or a Se-tard moment (not paying attention to what was happening in the first place?) Could it be either, or both?
    I doubt Si has anything to do with short-term memory. It's about trying to gather concrete information, whether for short-term, medium-term or long-term use. Si-preferers with dyslexia, dementia, schizophrenia or other conditions will have a poor short-term memory, desperately poor in the latter cases, but the aspects of situations they'll focus on and remember more of will be different to those of other types with the same conditions. As raz said, it's about gathering concrete information and comparing it with other stored information or with incoming information, and you can approach things in that manner with or without a good short-term memory.

    For example, most people occasionally enter a room and can't remember why they did so - a lapse of short-term memory - but may still notice instantly that something in the room isn't exactly as they left it the previous morning.

    INtuitors with poor Si I'd think would be those people prone to stating facts and trends that they're sure they've heard of or encountered again and again without being able to bring sources, details or examples to mind. The abstract notion is isolated at the time for special attention and the rest neglected and forgotten. Sensors with poor Si would be more keen to have experiences, judge them (T/F) and move on than to store them in detail or compare them with what's come before. That would look like disinterest in learning about things, especially if they also had little patience for N.

  8. #18
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Some things I think poor Se might lead to:

    Slow development of physical skills, not noticing quickly which details are relevant, not being alert to opportunities and risks as they emerge, feeling overwhelmed by lots of things going on, lack of awareness of the immediate surroundings, frequent accidents, poor boundary testing and cue reading, trouble learning by doing.

  9. #19
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This is what I’m having trouble understanding about Si. The descriptions I’ve read vary on this distinction. All the online definitions of Si that I’ve found tend to omit any inclusion of ‘affect’ in the data that gets ‘collected and compared to past experiences’- but I haven’t seen any explicitly exclude it either.

    As for offline sources, both books I have about functions do clearly state that ‘affect’ is part of that Si data.

    From Lenore Thompson’s ‘Owner’s Manual’:



    And this is from Gary & Margaret Hartzler’s “Functions of Type”:


    So- that's why I'm confused about whether or not 'affect' is part of that Si 'data'.
    Well, you've kind of illustrated what I meant about contradictory information. It's still all theory. You'll find various definitions/explanations, and the 'experts' tend to have various viewpoints as well, and various opinions/theories on development.

    Yeah, I did mention this in the op. It’s never a matter of one function working in isolation. I’m inclined to think the way an underdeveloped function plays in the collaborative process is going to vary according to an individual’s hierarchy of functions- and even then it’s probably going to vary even further according to individuals. But I also think that probing into it reveals some interesting correlations.
    I think there are interesting generalities when it comes to type, and I can definitely see similarities between myself and other dominant Ni's. But beyond the first couple of functions -- the correlations tend to vanish (in my opinion).

    I do agree with you though that each cognitive function would play out differently, in theory, between each of the 16 types - a slightly different nuance/manner of utilizing the function depending on type, and the function would come into play in different settings with each type. And agree w/ you that you have further individual variance within each type.

    Actually though I find the correlations between pure dichotomies -- E/I, T/F, N/S, J/P - just as compelling, if not moreso, than bringing cognitive functions into the mix. Things are quite straightforward, and relatively consistent, with the dichotomies. Things get muddled quickly with the functions.

    I see your point about taking it too seriously. But when it isn't taken too seriously, all the 'theory' can be a helpful means to better understanding ourselves and other people. IMO, anyway.
    I guess I have come to a different conclusion over time...pinning cognitive functions onto my friends or myself tends to just muddle things further, and adds unnecessary complexity, and then I'm also doing them the additional disservice of presuming something about them (based on what functions they're 'supposed' to be operating under) that might not be the case at all, as real-life people don't tend to follow theoretical function orders. It's much easier - much more intuitive - for me to just get to know a person without paying attention to cognitive functions. In some ways I wish I didn't know a thing about them.

    I think the functions themselves can be helpful in fostering communication about pretty intangible concepts, and they can provide a good framework for discussing personality. But the minute people start talking function order or how such and such type isn't 'supposed' to utilize such and such function, that's when it becomes ridiculous.

    And...there's so much too when it comes to an individuals' own experiences, and other psychological factors and coping/defense mechanisms. Much more to personality than cognitive functions. [by the way, I'm not directing this at you specifically, this is just what is becoming my usual rant. ha.]

    I do apologize though for moving away from your original questions....
    I'm not the right person to answer your questions on Se/Si and what those functions truly embody, especially in the sense of being inferior functions in an individual, as I'm somewhat jaded when it comes to taking most of cognitive function theory at face value.

    Compulsiverambler made some good posts on Si/Se
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  10. #20
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i think we just need to refine our understandings of the cognitive functions and focus our thinking better.

    inferior Si is why enp people act like they're high all the time.

    i don't think the selectivity factor makes 100% sense, i think it overstates it as a subjective experience. yet, at the same time, if i compare it to Ni, i have to accept that the way details are selected and reality is framed internally determines very much how we filter the world and organize our ways of relating to the world in a judgment sense.

    Si is still concrete, and using it well means that you are able to get information and store it better than other types, so it's not JUST selective. but, at the same time, it like all perception IS actively LOOKING for something, integrating useful information, etc. just like Ni would. it becomes skilled at doing a lot of work with minimal effort comparatively. we are good at keeping the information we want, for Ni it is abstracted relational holographic and for Si it is objects-as-objects, concrete details, and most of all PHYSICAL TANGIBLE SENSE impressions which can include tying your own kinesthetic stomach-dropping sad-feeling scared knot etc via Fi working in conjunction with Si. a personal relating of Si info to Fi. Ti seems to work w/ Si in terms of trusting STORIES when they are built on Si info that seems legit and checks out internally. entps for this reason are way more stretchy, generally, than intps, when it comes to discussions on "truth" bc their sensory info is usually pretty shitty and they would rather just reconstruct and improvise anyway/as a result.

    my sensotardation is that i dont' use my eyes sometimes for weeks. i don't realize why things are going wrong and it's bc i'm writing words rather than seeing the world around me, i'm trying to imagine somethin that isn't here so i go into Ni stare and blink blink blink. ive realized this in the past when multi-tasking at work, cooking at home without visual information, losing in video games bc i am not watching the screen with more than 10% attention, reading a page without my eyes, etc. just not present, so it makes my outward physical mapping skills very poor, i have no idea where anything is and rarely come back enough to find it. recognizing this is a huge breakthru, "use your eyes" is helpful to say to myself.

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