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  1. #21
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    FYI, they are the sources quoted for the INTJ analysis, which prompted Jen's INTP analysis.
    I meant more in terms of who they are. I'd kinda guessed what they did. Perhaps the distinction is a little fine but no matter it's irrelevant now. Thanks.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #22
    Junior Member ssrprotege's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    <placeholder: Last Two Shadow functions here>
    Interesting analysis. Where are the two last shadow functions?

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssrprotege View Post
    Interesting analysis. Where are the two last shadow functions?
    uh... don't ask me. I wrote this 10 months ago, and apparently I forgot to finish it.

    Got some ideas? feel free to contribute.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Right well reading through this certainly makes me feel like a pillock. I wondered where Elfinchilde got her whole analysis process from and what it meant. Also re-reading this lot concrete's why I'm different from other INTPs in rather unexpected ways...

    Please do finish it Jennifer. I am now like Prince Charles crossed with an elephant.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #25
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    5. One-Dimensional Opposing Personality

    This is a construct representing the unconscious oppositional personality that holds up a "stop sign" when you encounter something you're uncomfortable with. For an INTP, this is Extroverted Thinking (Te).

    Fortunate INTPs have been forced to develop the ability to create closure and conclude tasks in the external world. However, types that strongly use Te (such as ExTJ and even IxTJ) can be frustrating to deal with because they are driving towards the completion of goals: They are cutting things off, clamping them down, playing with the Procrustean bed, so that goals can be accomplished. They seem rough, brutal, even pointlessly violent.

    Introverted Thinking allows INTPs to understand what they are doing and why but because their priority is to bring closure (rather than accurately define something and its boundaries), these actions seem to violate the spirit and essence of the very things they are manipulating. This is a violation of reality to INTPs, leaving whatever achievements made sometimes seeming very hollow.

    Thus, negative reactions of INTPs will sometimes pop up unexpectedly when someone is seemingly riding roughshod over the nature of things, or impose stifling order upon organic chaos, or trying to control people who deserve autonomy, and so on -- the negatives reactions are spontaneous, and they arise because of the Ti/Te conflict.

    6. Witch/Senex (same sex)
    Males will have a Senex (wise old man) function, the archetypal inner critic; females will have a corresponding witch. Criticism that is offered can be constructive or destructive.

    For INTPs, Introverted Intuition (Ni) can be devastating because it instinctively undermines the entire Thinking process. After we have collected data and sifted through our evaluations and come up with what we think are definable truths, the senex/witch will appear and say, You cant prove any of this, you know. All of your rules are based on assumptions. There are no actual rules because reality depends on where you stand. And all the patterns that youve seen are just that patterns that have no inherent meaning.

    For a type that derives truths from the outside world, assuming it to be the source of reality well, this sort of concept seems like madness, if not completely offensive. In the eyes of Ni, everything is arbitrary; to a Ti running off Ne, nothing is arbitrary.

    This response of frustration is most noticeable in INTPs when they finish offering a wonderful argument for something and someone responds with, Well, of course, thats just YOUR way of looking at it. Immediately the blood boils because to Ti, the argument was anything BUT a mere perspective it was the utter truth in a nutshell, and someone who says things like this often draws the label of fool from the INTP.

    Still, Ni does not have to be an enemy. Ni is a godsend in the sense that Ti can sometimes deteriorate and get stuck in a rut. Ni shakes things up, reminds us that its possible to have different orientations towards a problem/thing, and then we can step into one of those other orientations and recalculate our answers from THAT perspective, to see if we arrive at a different answer.

    It is much like the notion of a photo and camera: Two people can photograph the same scene, but the picture will look different, and sometimes different information can be gleaned from the picture. Perhaps there is just one true reality somewhere, but the INTP hasnt necessarily found it, and viewing things from another orientation can add to the big picture of what is truly going on.

    [Personal example: My spiritual beliefs. For many long years, I had used my TiNe combination to prove to myself that my then-current faith had been correct. But eventually Ni dragged me out of that comfort zone, and I realized that all of my assumptions had been wrong or at least not as trustworthy as I had hoped. So I was forced to recalculate. I floundered for so long and was depressed/hopeless over the loss of faith yet getting rid of the preconceptions helped me to view faith from different angles and gain whole new perspectives. So perhaps I had to start over, but anything I believe in now is more stable than what I had been believing in the past.]
    So Ni is either the critic to which INTPs are hypersensitive or else the wise council that helps INTPs get beyond any of their own preconceptions and apply their thinking in new ways.

    <placeholder: Last Two Shadow functions here>
    This is a really, really great analysis. Could people do this for the other personality types as well? That would be fabulous!!!! <pats Jennifer on the back> Good job!
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  6. #26
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    From Berens:
    "May Trick with extraverted Sensing (Se):
    They can fool temselves and others with a misguided focus on the perceived realities of a situation. Under stress, they tend to be deceived into taking impulsive action. Yet at times...they may laugh at their own lack of comfort in dealing with the physical."

    I know I'm always missing things visually, looking at the wrong things, etc.

    "May become destructive with Introverted Feeling (Fi):
    They are usually slow to choose what is important to them. They may...misjudge the relative importance of things. When really stressed, they likely wind up spending money and time on things that are their undoing. Yet on occasion they tap into universal values that in the context of their lives can transform."

    Does seem to come up mostly when things are wrong, but at the end gives some sort of comfort.

    You can also check out elfinchilde's "MBTI Dissection" (which also seems to be with more INTP's than anything else).

    It would also be good if someone did these for all types, from the four different perspectives:
    1) What in general brings up the shadows (example: become stressed and feel defensive, and then go into oppositional mode)
    2) How another's use of the function affects you (Someone uses your oppositional function with you, innocently, and it feels like you're being attacked)
    3) How you use the shadow function on others (become stubborn and argumentative with your oppositional function)
    4) How your own use of it affects you ("become destructive with destructive function")

    Berens focuses mostly on the last 2 (and the last one mainly for the deceiving and destructive roles). The INTJ site mentions #1 for that type, and then in people's discussions, I see #2.
    All of this is from John Beebe, who I've heard has not written it in books, but only talks about it in lectures. So maybe we need to see if any of his lecures are sold anywhere.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    I find the whole original post (or maybe I should say two posts) very facinating.

    Right now I am pondering the 4th function which is Se for me. I identify with the aspirational part as art seems to be one of my mine focuses right now, even though it is based of my 4th fuction.

    What I can't quite figure out is that reverse gender part of it. What does that mean it practicle terms? Does that mean that my tastes in this area would be masculine? That I would like a more masculine style art? That for exercise or physcial activity I would choose something masculine?

    Ilah

  8. #28
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    6. Witch/Senex (same sex) , gosh that is disgusting xD
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #29
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    This is a general eight-function analysis of INTP based on John Beebe's works (plus Berens).

    I've been working on this for a few days and just need to bite off things in manageable chunks. This is still a rough, though.

    The conscious personality (first four functions) comes first. I'll finish the subconscious personality (four shadow functions) later and add it here.

    This is based partly on the INTJ eight function analysis here.

    Function 1. Heroic
    This is the cognitive process you're most comfortable using, your primary. It develops first and is called the "Heroic" because it is generally in charge (the leading function) and the 'star of your story' any time you have to engage a situation.

    In the case of INTP, the Heroic is Introverted Thinking (Ti), which manifests as the defining and prioritizing of principles of the real world -- forming and comprehending the definitions of things and how they systematically interact based on those definitions.

    Things (objects, organizations, people, processes, etc.) are defined by what they've done in the past and what they are doing now; and Thinking can predict (with the appropriate probability attached) what they might do in the future. Definitions are constantly being updated based on new information, and objects are constantly being reduced to their 'essential qualities.'

    Ti itself is an evaluation process, rather than a direct view of an object itself. The rules used by the INTP hold more priority than the actual outcome of applying those rules. The output/answer is always based on what is fed into the Thinking hopper.

    Function #2. Good Parent
    This archetype usually operates in a supportive/protective role, helping the Heroic function as needed. In terms of interaction, it is the 'parental role' -- how we generally contribute to others.

    The INTP 'good parent' is Extroverted Intuition (Ne), which instinctively sees all the connections among things and leapfrogs about to unlock the potential of what might happen or how things are related. It is the sense that finds patterns in the outer world, and these patterns then are fed into the Ti hopper for processing, to distill general principles from the patterns.

    Incidentally, Ne supporting Ti is what makes INTPs so good at theoretical thought, because Ne allows for the perception of all the possible truths/connections, while Ti ensures that the connections being made are all prioritized and scaled as accurately as possible i.e., placed in context and pitted against each other. Unlikely connections are flagged as improbable, more likely connections are accredited more weight, and meanwhile no options are closed off prematurely (if ever), in case new information might come to light.

    When INTPs parent, they do tend to use the Ne approach. They focus on delivering information to their children, giving them opportunities to explore, pointing out potential connections or routes the child could take to reach new relevant ideas. They like to give context and setting to the child when they offer advice, but hate (unless the stakes are high enough) just imposing certain decisions upon them; it is more important for the child to become autonomous and learn a process by which good decisions can be made.
    An INTP parent believes their role to be in helping the child see clearly not just what is out there but what reasonably COULD be out there and then providing an evaluation process for those possibilities.

    (Note: Internally, the place where an INTP parents herself, she often will end up using the Ti process to evaluate her own behavior instead of the external Ne. Thus, the INTP as a self-parent is much more critical of herself and does not usually offer herself the same flexibility as she offers other people whom she is advising. One route for change is for the INTP to credit herself with a more positive Ne life coach, not the scathing Ti test corrector.)

    3. Child (Jungian "Puer/Puella" -- or "Boy/Girl")
    Represents the archetypical child in all of us. We use this trait in a more "child-like" (i.e., unnuanced/uncomplicated/immature) ways. Beebe suggests this means the function can act in an inflated or deflated way.

    In the case of INTP, Introverted Sensing plays the child role, which means that our sense of our (1) internalized body sensations and an (2) internal roadmap to life are not as well developed as our TiNe combination.
    In other words, we are good at distilling truth from the outer world and seeing what is reasonable to expect and drawing truthful principles from that; and the role that Si plays is as a repository for our past conclusions, which can become calcified over time depending on how fearful we happen to be and unwilling to take risks in engaging the world via Ne.

    The Child is simplistic compared to the first two functions. In regards to situation #1 (our body), it is easy for an INTP to both underemphasize or overemphasize the bodys signals. Ignoring our body often leads to the disembodied mind syndrome SO common to INTPs we can easily run our bodies into the ground by treating them as superfluous appendages that get in the way of our intuition and thinking processes. On the other hand, we can also become suddenly too locked onto our bodies signals and essentially become hypochondriacs about each little pain and twinge and discomfort, wondering what dreadful sign those signals are foretelling whereas aches and pains are quite common to people who are more used to examining their body signals.

    In regards to Situation #2, INTPs have a tendency to use our internal sense of what is the map weve grown accustomed to to avoid using our Ne any longer and take risks that might force us to change the conclusions weve drawn with Ti. So we symbolically hole up like a child in the back corner of our internal closet and refuse to come out, indulging instead in our little fantasy world where everything works just like weve supposed it does.

    (In conclusion, TiNe needs to parent the child, not let the child parent her!)

    Si can be developed but only when it is subjected to good TiNe. It records our past so that we have something stable to draw from, and it provides input about the condition of our bodies, reminding us of our humanity and that our mind/thinking *is* impacted by our physical condition. So taking care of ourselves helps us function better.

    4. Anima/Animus (opposite sex)
    Males have an anima (female archetypal counterpart) which represents the feminine side of the man. Females have an animus (male archetypal counterpart). It generally means at best one's aspirational side or at worst one's negative projections.

    In the case of INTP, the dreaded Extroverted Feeling function acts as the anima/animus. There is a love-hate battle going on between expressions of emotion, as well as expressions of commitment/relational responsibilities. This is the same love/hate pull that drives early attraction between individuals (falling in love we are drawn to the mysterious other).

    So INTPs either tend to glorify those who show Fe (seeing it as an ideal for us to aspire to) or else label the "monster" that can be blamed for the host of human evils.

    INTPs might love it at first when someone showers emotion on us and gives us the commitment we need to feel secure; but other times we despise it, feeling like we need to shower ourselves afterwards to get clean again or even cut loose ties altogether to retain the objectivity of Ti. Fe is mysterious and potentially deadly, and perhaps that is the power of its enticement.

    INTPs can consciously learn to develop Fe it is the judging function that should interfere least with Ti when expressed. (Ti can determine principles, Fe gives the INTP a social voice with which to speak those derived principles. It makes the INTP effective in society and grounded.)
    One thing: the genders of the archetypes aren't always as layed out in this model. My guess is, further in the future, when people don't have much of a gender identity, the genders of the archetypes will be irrellevant. I also hope that will be the case.
    Jung pretty much equated the anima with all male emotion, but none of us has to be that stupid.
    On the other hand, it is still fun to play with the gender-aspects of the model. I bet there's some significant number of, say (arbitrary example) bisexual Te's out there who attracted to Fis of the opposite sex and Ti's of the same sex (or vice versa).

  10. #30
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    One thing: the genders of the archetypes aren't always as layed out in this model. My guess is, further in the future, when people don't have much of a gender identity, the genders of the archetypes will be irrellevant. I also hope that will be the case.
    I hope too, bud.

    Your analysis of the eight is awesome. But it lacks one key point. There is nothing about beer in it.

    I just cant understand, how someone can dare analyzing a 8 without mentioning beer. That is just disgusting
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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