The greatest misconception of MBTI: Cynicism

[SuperFob]

I've heard MBTI say that cynicism is a T trait. I don't think it is. I think that there's two kinds of cynicism, one belonging to T's and one belonging to F's. Granted, the first kind is MUCH more common, which is obviously why it's more well-known. The second one seems to be more of a secret, but I've discovered that it's very real.

Detached cynicism is what I've observed in T's. Indifferent cynicism. That's the kind of cynicism that seems to be more well-known. It's the kind of cynicism that comes about when someone (most often a T) looks at the world and all warm, cuddly, fuzzy-wuzzy ideas (or should I say 'ideals') in it that people call 'meaningful' and calmly says "nah, I don't think any of that is realistic or possible." There doesn't seem to be much, if any, emotion involved in this kind of cynicism.

And then there's the other kind of cynicism, the less common one. People don't seem to recognize the difference between this kind of cynicism and the former kind all that well. That doesn't change the fact that there're a few F's (admittedly, a MINORITY of F's, the kind of F that I always see getting mistyped as a T) who believe in it, though. It's a bitter kind of cynicism. An angry kind of cynicism. It's the kind of cynicism that is born when an F lives their life believing in an ideal (perhaps it's true love, perhaps it's eternal peace... it could be anything), and then one day experiences something that completely shatters that belief. When something like that happens it can piss off a feeler so badly to the point that said feeler goes in the complete opposite direction and learns to hate life. He/she looks at everything they see and learns to bitterly say "Fuck it. It can't be real. It can't mean anything like I used to think it did."

I know because it happened to me. I stumbled on an idea that made me come to the realization that life doesn't really mean anything at all. And I think it's inaccurate that F's are stereotyped as 'idealistic' when, in fact, they have the ability to end up straying as far from idealism as one can possibly go.

 

[wolfy]

I always thought the majority of cynics would be F types. I always thought a cynic is an idealist who has lost faith in an ideal, in the world. A person whose ideals have been smashed by harsh reality so, you must first be an idealist before you have the capacity to be really truly cynical.

 

[Xander]

Cynicism (Greek: Kυνισμός) originally comprised the various philosophies of a group of ancient Greeks called the Cynics, founded by Antisthenes in about the 4th century BC. The Cynics rejected all conventions, whether of religion, manners, housing, dress, or decency, advocating the pursuit of virtue in a simple and unmaterialistic lifestyle.
By the 19th century, emphasis on the negative aspects of Cynic philosophy led to a new and very different understanding of cynicism to mean an attitude of jaded negativity, and a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of other people. Modern cynicism, as a product of mass society, is a distrust toward professed ethical and social values, especially when there are high expectations concerning society, institutions and authorities which are unfulfilled. Cynicism can manifest itself as a result of frustration, disillusionment, and distrust perceived as due to organizations, authorities and other aspects of society, and thus is roughly equivalent to a substantive form of the English word "jaded".

I agree that Fs can be cynical but couldn't that be associated with their T? After all you're never all F or all T?

 

[Totenkindly]

Detached cynicism is what I've observed in T's. Indifferent cynicism.

...And then there's the other kind of cynicism, the less common one. ...It's the kind of cynicism that is born when an F lives their life believing in an ideal (perhaps it's true love, perhaps it's eternal peace... it could be anything), and then one day experiences something that completely shatters that belief. When something like that happens it can piss off a feeler so badly to the point that said feeler goes in the complete opposite direction and learns to hate life. He/she looks at everything they see and learns to bitterly say "Fuck it. It can't be real. It can't mean anything like I used to think it did."

Thank you for pointing it out; and yes, I totally agree. (I had recognized the nuance long ago but just had not thought about articulating it this way.)

I know because it happened to me. I stumbled on an idea that made me come to the realization that life doesn't really mean anything at all. And I think it's inaccurate that F's are stereotyped as 'idealistic' when, in fact, they have the ability to end up straying as from idealism as one can possibly go.

I disagree that giving up idealism means you're not idealistic.

It's like when people disobey authority. NTPs disobey authority mostly because they're indifferent to the rules or find them inconvenient. No authority exists, unless it is earned by being something naturally authoritative. But people who normally work within an authoritative framework (such as STJ) are still operating within the authoritative framework when they rebel -- they view the world through the paradigm of compliant/rebellious. They're still within the framework even when they're rebellious. There's a big difference between someone ignoring the law because they don't even view the world in those terms and someone ignoring the law as an act of rebellion.

Same thing goes for non-idealists vs fallen idealists, I think.

I agree that Fs can be cynical but couldn't that be associated with their T? After all you're never all F or all T?

Why's it have to be associated with one or the other?

I don't know, the OP seems to fit the pattern I've seen... although I don't know if all T's are "indifferent cynics" and all F's are "fallen idealists." INTJs get pretty idealistic too and aren't exactly indifferent when their view of the world is thwarted, whereas INTPs seem to take it far less personally and tend to become fatalistic instead.

 

[Xander]

Why's it have to be associated with one or the other?

It doesn't and probably isn't 100% like everything else but play along dear. Be a good girl and don't argue with the premises...

I don't know, the OP seems to fit the pattern I've seen... although I don't know if all T's are "indifferent cynics" and all F's are "fallen idealists." INTJs get pretty idealistic too and aren't exactly indifferent when their view of the world is thwarted, whereas INTPs seem to take it far less personally and tend to become fatalistic instead.

Cynicism has nothing to do with being disappointed. Cynicism is looking at things from a negative point of view, effectively declaring that if it's 50/50 then it's probably a failure or the glass is half empty except with more analysis included.

Personally I think the word has more links to people objectively de-constructing something to show the faults than it has to do with people expecting the worst because that's what happened before, hence the MBTI link.

 

[Athenian200]

What do you call it if I think the world is a great place when I achieve my goals and get what I want, and a lousy place when I'm frustrated in doing so? Would that be cynical or idealistic?

 

[BlackCat]

What do you call it if I think the world is a great place when I achieve my goals and get what I want, and a lousy place when I'm frustrated in doing so? Would that be cynical or idealistic?

That sounds like basic human nature. You know... your moods effecting you.

 

[Athenian200]

That sounds like basic human nature. You know... your moods effecting you.

Ah. So it's realism? I mean, your moods really do affect you, and my worldview takes that into account.

 

[Xander]

What do you call it if I think the world is a great place when I achieve my goals and get what I want, and a lousy place when I'm frustrated in doing so? Would that be cynical or idealistic?

A frustrated idealist.

 

[SuperFob]

Cynicism has nothing to do with being disappointed. Cynicism is looking at things from a negative point of view, effectively declaring that if it's 50/50 then it's probably a failure or the glass is half empty except with more analysis included.

Oh, yes. It can, indeed, have quite a bit to do with disappointment. Cynicism is defined as...

"An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others."

If anything, that definition invites the description of a kind of cynicism inspired by disappointment moreso than it does a kind of cynicism caused by some objective, detached disbelief.

 

[Athenian200]

A frustrated idealist.

That works.

Seems like you people in the U.K. still speak (or at least write) English similarly enough to communicate effectively with us. That's good.

See? There are some things I like about the world.

 

[William K]

Oh, yes. It can, indeed, have quite a bit to do with disappointment. Cynicism is defined as...

"An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others."

If anything, that definition invites the description of a kind of cynicism inspired by disappointment moreso than it does a kind of cynicism caused by some objective, detached disbelief.

Sounds like :
One is the "been there, done that (and failed that I guess)" cynicism. The other is the "yeah, right" kind, although that is kinda like skepticism...

 

[INTJMom]

...
"An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others."
...

Hmm. I have experienced this a lot in my life, but I am usually severely depressed at the time (not sure which comes first). I can't live in that frame of mind constantly because it's just too... depressing.

 

[SuperFob]

Sounds like :
One is the "been there, done that (and failed that I guess)" cynicism. The other is the "yeah, right" kind

A very concise way of putting it.

 

[Xander]

Oh, yes. It can, indeed, have quite a bit to do with disappointment. Cynicism is defined as...

"An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others."

If anything, that definition invites the description of a kind of cynicism inspired by disappointment moreso than it does a kind of cynicism caused by some objective, detached disbelief.

Well from my perspective I'm a positive person but I just don't trust the whole "well he's accredited so I believe him" mentality. Hence I'm cynical. I'm not pessimistic, I think you're merging the two somewhere but I can't quite place where... bear with me it may occur later... like next tuesday if I'm on par.

That works.

Seems like you people in the U.K. still speak (or at least write) English similarly enough to communicate effectively with us. That's good.

See? There are some things I like about the world.

Well it has been noted us Brits have a certain dryness. Perhaps you need a boat or a shed load of swimming lessons?

 

[SuperFob]

I think you're merging the two somewhere but I can't quite place where...

I just think there's more than one kind of cynicism. The kind you refer to would be one, and the other would refer to a kind of cynicism driven by negative emotions such as disappointment, bitterness, etc.

Pessimism is a different thing entirely. It has to do with expectation. It's an attitude where you expect bad events to happen in the future. In other words, it has to do with making predictions about the future.

Cynicism at it's core doesn't have anything to do with predicting the future. It has to do with a negative outlook human nature and life in general. It relates to ideas such as generosity, true love, goodwill, friendship, etc.

It may be possible for cynicism to lead to pessimism, but it's also a state of mind that can exist utterly independent of pessimism.

Remember that definition I quoted earlier? Looking at it closely, it had the word 'scornful' in it. It's just a simple fact that if scornful is included in the definition of cynicism, then it brings an emotional context to it. That's assuming that the definition is accurate though.

 

[Xander]

I just think there's more than one kind of cynicism. The kind you refer to would be one, and the other would refer to a kind of cynicism driven by negative emotions such as disappointment, bitterness, etc.

Pessimism is a different thing entirely. It has to do with expectation. It's an attitude where you expect bad events to happen in the future. In other words, it has to do with making predictions about the future.

Cynicism at it's core doesn't have anything to do with predicting the future. It has to do with a negative outlook human nature and life in general. It relates to ideas such as generosity, true love, goodwill, friendship, etc.

It may be possible for cynicism to lead to pessimism, but it's also a state of mind that can exist utterly independent of pessimism.

Remember that definition I quoted earlier? Looking at it closely, it had the word 'scornful' in it. It's just a simple fact that if scornful is included in the definition of cynicism, then it brings an emotional context to it. That's assuming that the definition is accurate though.

Oh cynicism isn't without emotion but then no T is either. It's the emotional reaction to the result thrown out by the brain that causes the whole cynicism.

I think I've found the crux of where I draw the difference, indulge me please it's liable to be rough.

Cynicism is independent of experience in essence (the classic example).
Angry cynicism like you describe would be a reaction to prior experience.

That's why I see the whole angry cynicism as more pessimistic because it's bringing negativity in where as pessimism is searching for existing negatives.

Does that make more sense?

 

[SuperFob]

Does that make more sense?

I see what you're getting at. I think disagreement comes over the fact that we have differing definitions of cynicism.

 

[SuperFob]

Actually, a quick look at the dictionary shows that I made a mistake earlier in defining pessimism...

pessimism is searching for existing negatives.

That looks like a more accurate definition than what I said earlier. Apparently, pessimism doesn't always have to do with predicting the future. So, it looks like Xander is onto something.

 

[phthalocyanine]

i think Fi can be quite cynical