User Tag List

First 7891011 Last

Results 81 to 90 of 110

  1. #81
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Anyways, I'm not saying your view isn't logically consistent. It just doesn't fit with the definitions anyone else uses.
    Well, that's completely wrong. There's a wide variety of very different interpretations all over this board. Some people (off the top of my head, Athenian and blackcat, for instance) do see EP/EJ/IP/IJ as more fundamental divisions than Keirsey's temperaments.

    I can't say I'm surprised that you've misinterpreted what the external world thinks about this. You do seem to use primarily Ni/Ti; I think you may actually be INFJ with underdeveloped Fe because you seem to understand the external world very poorly.

    You are proficient in both iNtuition and Thinking, but you use both only in terms of their introverted forms and your ideas on typology are purely subjectively validated as a result.

    Extreme extroverts are overly dependent upon validation from others/the external world because their introverted functions are underdeveloped.

    Likewise, in your case, extreme introverts go too far with subjective validation of their own ideas because they don't pay enough attention to external ideas and criticisms. Without a reliable source of external information factoring into your strong conscious thought processes, your two dominant introverted processes simply drink their own bathwater. Such is the problem with lacking a strong extroverted function.

    (This is how unbalanced Ni leads to conspiracy theories--introverted functions left to their own devices have no access to any external information and just self-validate until the cows come home. INFJ Charlie Manson thought the Beatles had written messages specifically and personally to HIM because he was viciously anti-social and totally out of touch with anything going on outside his own head. He needed an extroverted function...that's why these double-I dominant or double-E dominant types always end up so unbalanced; they're almost entirely dependent on either internal or external psychological validation, both of which are necessary for a balanced worldview.)

    As with everything there is an ideal balance, but you're not going to reach it by pretending extroversion can be understood in purely introverted terms.

    Good luck.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #82
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,443

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    It depends how you define types. There are obviously lots of possible function orders: 8*7*6*5*4*3*2 = 40320 possible orders.
    That's right. Now you get the point.

  3. #83
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    That's right. Now you get the point.
    If these things can be so clearly and objectively tested, why is there any controversy whatsoever when it comes to how types should be defined?

    Furthermore, wouldn't this crap be accepted by the entire field of psychology and taught as scientific fact? I don't understand why you keep harping on tests, tests, tests. They don't mean anything.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #84
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    12,443

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If these things can be so clearly and objectively tested, why is there any controversy whatsoever when it comes to how types should be defined?

    Furthermore, wouldn't this crap be accepted by the entire field of psychology and taught as scientific fact? I don't understand why you keep harping on tests, tests, tests. They don't mean anything.
    Everything you say contradicts what you do on a daily basis in this forum.
    Months ago you agreed that MBTI function orders are bullshit.
    Yet damned if you don't run around this forum telling people what their function orders are!
    As if you actually know.

    The point is, you don't know.
    No one can prove what, or how many, functions are being used at one time.
    No one can prove what we lead with.
    Just how stupid do you think people are?

    So far the only truly intelligent response I've seen is poki's.
    Clearly, the person understands how crucial the interplay is, between the conscious and the subconscious.

    That interplay, whether you realize it or not, means everything in self-assessment.
    Which means, a person could completely mistake what their leading function is.
    Even Lenore Thomson made the comment that people frequently get their Dom/Aux backwards.
    Is that possible? Yes. Conscious vs. Subconscious at play.

    But does she really know for certain? No.
    None of us do.
    For all we know, the majority of people type themselves how they wish themselves to be-- rather than how they really are.

  5. #85
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Well, that's completely wrong. There's a wide variety of very different interpretations all over this board. Some people (off the top of my head, Athenian and blackcat, for instance) do see EP/EJ/IP/IJ as more fundamental divisions than Keirsey's temperaments.

    I can't say I'm surprised that you've misinterpreted what the external world thinks about this. You do seem to use primarily Ni/Ti; I think you may actually be INFJ with underdeveloped Fe because you seem to understand the external world very poorly.

    You are proficient in both iNtuition and Thinking, but you use both only in terms of their introverted forms and your ideas on typology are purely subjectively validated as a result.

    Extreme extroverts are overly dependent upon validation from others/the external world because their introverted functions are underdeveloped.

    Likewise, in your case, extreme introverts go too far with subjective validation of their own ideas because they don't pay enough attention to external ideas and criticisms. Without a reliable source of external information factoring into your strong conscious thought processes, your two dominant introverted processes simply drink their own bathwater. Such is the problem with lacking a strong extroverted function.

    (This is how unbalanced Ni leads to conspiracy theories--introverted functions left to their own devices have no access to any external information and just self-validate until the cows come home. INFJ Charlie Manson thought the Beatles had written messages specifically and personally to HIM because he was viciously anti-social and totally out of touch with anything going on outside his own head. He needed an extroverted function...that's why these double-I dominant or double-E dominant types always end up so unbalanced; they're almost entirely dependent on either internal or external psychological validation, both of which are necessary for a balanced worldview.)

    As with everything there is an ideal balance, but you're not going to reach it by pretending extroversion can be understood in purely introverted terms.

    Good luck.
    Confirmation bias is a funny thing.

  6. #86
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,441

    Default

    The solution to this is a combination of acknowledging the concept of undifferentiated functions along with the archetype complexes. If a person has a strong Puer complex (which aligns the tertiary function with the dominant attitude), then he might appear to have two "strongest" functions of the same attitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    The annoying part is that any Xe and Xi can overlap; the only way I can think of to resolve this is to think of MBTI as only having four functions, with a dimension of introversion to extroversion for each. This way you can not only account for any possible eight function order, you can also deduce exactly which of the four functions are being used for each instance of cognition.
    Exactly!
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  7. #87
    deleted
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,946

    Default

    The best way is to not make them overlap. To say an N thought is not necessarily an Ne or Ni thought, because perhaps there is more to this thought then what it is now.

  8. #88
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Everything you say contradicts what you do on a daily basis in this forum.
    Months ago you agreed that MBTI function orders are bullshit.
    Yet damned if you don't run around this forum telling people what their function orders are!
    As if you actually know.
    No, I tell people what the function orders of their purported types are. I weigh this information against what I've observed and inferred about people on my own and a few other variables like how competent with typology concepts that person seems to be.

    Sometimes, when a person has provided enough information, I can make good guesses at which functions are responsible for which attitudes and beliefs, but not always.

    I take all of these into account in trying to come up with a composite guess, but it's still just a guess.

    When I describe function orders to people, try to take in this context: "Under the assumption that you fit the INTP mold as you say you do, your dominant function is Ti and your auxiliary is Ne."

    I also never really said that there aren't any people who exist outside of these molds. My belief on this has changed over time--I now consider the molds themselves to be the most effective arrangements of functions in theory, not the only ones that exist in practice.

    As I said, one who can use E, I, P and J functions all within his top two will probably be most balanced and most successful.

    There are certainly people who don't fit that order, but they're going to suffer personality imbalances as a result, and most could improve upon their lives by working to improve the auxiliary function that Jungian analysis predicts they should. (Btw, Jung actually DID say that the secondary function in a balanced individual is opposite the dominant "in every respect"--meaning J/P preference as well as direction. It's in Psychological Types and I can find the page number if you want.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The point is, you don't know.
    No one can prove what, or how many, functions are being used at one time.
    No one can prove what we lead with.
    Just how stupid do you think people are?
    I think you're making a mistake by assuming that my Ne exploration of ideas constitutes Te definiteness or completeness.

    I'm the one always saying that none of this can be tested or empirically proven, remember? The entire discussion of typology is on the presumption that it can't be proven or quantified!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    So far the only truly intelligent response I've seen is poki's.
    Clearly, the person understands how crucial the interplay is, between the conscious and the subconscious.

    That interplay, whether you realize it or not, means everything in self-assessment.
    Which means, a person could completely mistake what their leading function is.
    Even Lenore Thomson made the comment that people frequently get their Dom/Aux backwards.
    Is that possible? Yes. Conscious vs. Subconscious at play.
    This is a fine point, and it's why you can sometimes make arguments for people not having typed themselves accurately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    But does she really know for certain? No.
    None of us do.
    For all we know, the majority of people type themselves how they wish themselves to be-- rather than how they really are.
    Yes, I agree with that too.

    Arguing out a new idea or theory is part of my learning process...sometimes it works and other times it doesn't.

    I'm a P; I don't find it necessary to have my thoughts completed and organized into specifically quantified data in order to start using them externally. I realize this is a difference in our value systems here, but much of what I say is an idea I'm experimenting with, many of which later get discarded.

    I know you Te people value external precision and all that, and so you don't tend to release ideas until Ni has had time to thoroughly flesh them out so that can Te can accomplish something meaningful with them, but EP types really don't bother with this. It just comes out of our mouths because we have to discuss it with others in order to learn enough about it to make an internal decision (and Ji can take a long time to make up its mind, hence P flightiness.)

    ^ Just another reason P/J is by far the biggest difference.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #89
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    We're working with a field that consists entirely of personal opinion, Jag.

    Not a grain of deductive certainty is ever to be found here.

    What's your point?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #90
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,501

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Sheesh, intuitive minds, gotta spell everything out

    Ok, I will take it to simple terms. TiNi is used to piece together how thing logically fit at a very deep level to create a pattern or theory. Ne is good at this, but more in terms of breadth. So Ne would be like very quick and dirty TiNi or FiNi, something we dont really control conciously. Then someone like an INTP would logically break this down into Si data using Ti.

    Im wondering if for Ti types Ne or Se would be driven by a subconcious FiNi or FiSi then processed through Ti.

    An INTP would be Ne(FiNi) -> Ti - >Si

    Like I said just a thought.


    edit: to define what I see as Si look at what an INTP actually comes up with. The come up with the detail of the theory. The use Ti to take Ne and create detail of it. The detail is the constants, the invividual functions, etc.
    Just to take it a little further in a way I can personally relate to. Se for an ISTP would be FiSi as unconcious functions. So it makes quick decisions on what it feels are important. It can take in huge amounts and quickly dispose of things that we dont feel is important. I know when I am in Se it tends to also hit feelings which would explain why music and things are tied to feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    For all we know, the majority of people type themselves how they wish themselves to be-- rather than how they really are.
    I can see this, I would even go so far as to say that some people may not only mistype but try to be what they are not because of images that society and those around them hold that say how they should be.

Similar Threads

  1. Definition of the 8 cognitive functions with real life examples?
    By DreamBeliever in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-07-2015, 12:02 PM
  2. How to determine function order and what the functions mean... AS A NINJA
    By BlackCat in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-13-2009, 07:59 PM
  3. [JCF] What is the function order?
    By INTJ123 in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-16-2009, 04:34 PM
  4. Where does the introverted/extraverted function difference show up?
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-19-2008, 11:04 AM
  5. The Influence of Functions on Grammar
    By JustDave in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-29-2008, 11:01 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO