The alternative/real function orders

[simulatedworld]

Anyways, I'm not saying your view isn't logically consistent. It just doesn't fit with the definitions anyone else uses.

Well, that's completely wrong. There's a wide variety of very different interpretations all over this board. Some people (off the top of my head, Athenian and blackcat, for instance) do see EP/EJ/IP/IJ as more fundamental divisions than Keirsey's temperaments.

I can't say I'm surprised that you've misinterpreted what the external world thinks about this. You do seem to use primarily Ni/Ti; I think you may actually be INFJ with underdeveloped Fe because you seem to understand the external world very poorly.

You are proficient in both iNtuition and Thinking, but you use both only in terms of their introverted forms and your ideas on typology are purely subjectively validated as a result.

Extreme extroverts are overly dependent upon validation from others/the external world because their introverted functions are underdeveloped.

Likewise, in your case, extreme introverts go too far with subjective validation of their own ideas because they don't pay enough attention to external ideas and criticisms. Without a reliable source of external information factoring into your strong conscious thought processes, your two dominant introverted processes simply drink their own bathwater. Such is the problem with lacking a strong extroverted function.

(This is how unbalanced Ni leads to conspiracy theories--introverted functions left to their own devices have no access to any external information and just self-validate until the cows come home. INFJ Charlie Manson thought the Beatles had written messages specifically and personally to HIM because he was viciously anti-social and totally out of touch with anything going on outside his own head. He needed an extroverted function...that's why these double-I dominant or double-E dominant types always end up so unbalanced; they're almost entirely dependent on either internal or external psychological validation, both of which are necessary for a balanced worldview.)

As with everything there is an ideal balance, but you're not going to reach it by pretending extroversion can be understood in purely introverted terms.

Good luck.

 

[Jaguar]

It depends how you define types. There are obviously lots of possible function orders: 8*7*6*5*4*3*2 = 40320 possible orders.

That's right. Now you get the point.

 

[simulatedworld]

That's right. Now you get the point.

If these things can be so clearly and objectively tested, why is there any controversy whatsoever when it comes to how types should be defined?

Furthermore, wouldn't this crap be accepted by the entire field of psychology and taught as scientific fact? I don't understand why you keep harping on tests, tests, tests. They don't mean anything.

 

[Jaguar]

If these things can be so clearly and objectively tested, why is there any controversy whatsoever when it comes to how types should be defined?

Furthermore, wouldn't this crap be accepted by the entire field of psychology and taught as scientific fact? I don't understand why you keep harping on tests, tests, tests. They don't mean anything.

Everything you say contradicts what you do on a daily basis in this forum.
Months ago you agreed that MBTI function orders are bullshit.
Yet damned if you don't run around this forum telling people what their function orders are!
As if you actually know.

The point is, you don't know.
No one can prove what, or how many, functions are being used at one time.
No one can prove what we lead with.
Just how stupid do you think people are?

So far the only truly intelligent response I've seen is poki's.
Clearly, the person understands how crucial the interplay is, between the conscious and the subconscious.

That interplay, whether you realize it or not, means everything in self-assessment.
Which means, a person could completely mistake what their leading function is.
Even Lenore Thomson made the comment that people frequently get their Dom/Aux backwards.
Is that possible? Yes. Conscious vs. Subconscious at play.

But does she really know for certain? No.
None of us do.
For all we know, the majority of people type themselves how they wish themselves to be-- rather than how they really are.

 

[redacted]

Well, that's completely wrong. There's a wide variety of very different interpretations all over this board. Some people (off the top of my head, Athenian and blackcat, for instance) do see EP/EJ/IP/IJ as more fundamental divisions than Keirsey's temperaments.

I can't say I'm surprised that you've misinterpreted what the external world thinks about this. You do seem to use primarily Ni/Ti; I think you may actually be INFJ with underdeveloped Fe because you seem to understand the external world very poorly.

You are proficient in both iNtuition and Thinking, but you use both only in terms of their introverted forms and your ideas on typology are purely subjectively validated as a result.

Extreme extroverts are overly dependent upon validation from others/the external world because their introverted functions are underdeveloped.

Likewise, in your case, extreme introverts go too far with subjective validation of their own ideas because they don't pay enough attention to external ideas and criticisms. Without a reliable source of external information factoring into your strong conscious thought processes, your two dominant introverted processes simply drink their own bathwater. Such is the problem with lacking a strong extroverted function.

(This is how unbalanced Ni leads to conspiracy theories--introverted functions left to their own devices have no access to any external information and just self-validate until the cows come home. INFJ Charlie Manson thought the Beatles had written messages specifically and personally to HIM because he was viciously anti-social and totally out of touch with anything going on outside his own head. He needed an extroverted function...that's why these double-I dominant or double-E dominant types always end up so unbalanced; they're almost entirely dependent on either internal or external psychological validation, both of which are necessary for a balanced worldview.)

As with everything there is an ideal balance, but you're not going to reach it by pretending extroversion can be understood in purely introverted terms.

Good luck.

Confirmation bias is a funny thing.

 

[Eric B]

The solution to this is a combination of acknowledging the concept of undifferentiated functions along with the archetype complexes. If a person has a strong Puer complex (which aligns the tertiary function with the dominant attitude), then he might appear to have two "strongest" functions of the same attitude.

The annoying part is that any Xe and Xi can overlap; the only way I can think of to resolve this is to think of MBTI as only having four functions, with a dimension of introversion to extroversion for each. This way you can not only account for any possible eight function order, you can also deduce exactly which of the four functions are being used for each instance of cognition.

Exactly!

 

[527468]

The best way is to not make them overlap. To say an N thought is not necessarily an Ne or Ni thought, because perhaps there is more to this thought then what it is now.

 

[simulatedworld]

Everything you say contradicts what you do on a daily basis in this forum.
Months ago you agreed that MBTI function orders are bullshit.
Yet damned if you don't run around this forum telling people what their function orders are!
As if you actually know.

No, I tell people what the function orders of their purported types are. I weigh this information against what I've observed and inferred about people on my own and a few other variables like how competent with typology concepts that person seems to be.

Sometimes, when a person has provided enough information, I can make good guesses at which functions are responsible for which attitudes and beliefs, but not always.

I take all of these into account in trying to come up with a composite guess, but it's still just a guess.

When I describe function orders to people, try to take in this context: "Under the assumption that you fit the INTP mold as you say you do, your dominant function is Ti and your auxiliary is Ne."

I also never really said that there aren't any people who exist outside of these molds. My belief on this has changed over time--I now consider the molds themselves to be the most effective arrangements of functions in theory, not the only ones that exist in practice.

As I said, one who can use E, I, P and J functions all within his top two will probably be most balanced and most successful.

There are certainly people who don't fit that order, but they're going to suffer personality imbalances as a result, and most could improve upon their lives by working to improve the auxiliary function that Jungian analysis predicts they should. (Btw, Jung actually DID say that the secondary function in a balanced individual is opposite the dominant "in every respect"--meaning J/P preference as well as direction. It's in Psychological Types and I can find the page number if you want.)

The point is, you don't know.
No one can prove what, or how many, functions are being used at one time.
No one can prove what we lead with.
Just how stupid do you think people are?

I think you're making a mistake by assuming that my Ne exploration of ideas constitutes Te definiteness or completeness.

I'm the one always saying that none of this can be tested or empirically proven, remember? The entire discussion of typology is on the presumption that it can't be proven or quantified!

So far the only truly intelligent response I've seen is poki's.
Clearly, the person understands how crucial the interplay is, between the conscious and the subconscious.

That interplay, whether you realize it or not, means everything in self-assessment.
Which means, a person could completely mistake what their leading function is.
Even Lenore Thomson made the comment that people frequently get their Dom/Aux backwards.
Is that possible? Yes. Conscious vs. Subconscious at play.

This is a fine point, and it's why you can sometimes make arguments for people not having typed themselves accurately.

But does she really know for certain? No.
None of us do.
For all we know, the majority of people type themselves how they wish themselves to be-- rather than how they really are.

Yes, I agree with that too.

Arguing out a new idea or theory is part of my learning process...sometimes it works and other times it doesn't.

I'm a P; I don't find it necessary to have my thoughts completed and organized into specifically quantified data in order to start using them externally. I realize this is a difference in our value systems here, but much of what I say is an idea I'm experimenting with, many of which later get discarded.

I know you Te people value external precision and all that, and so you don't tend to release ideas until Ni has had time to thoroughly flesh them out so that can Te can accomplish something meaningful with them, but EP types really don't bother with this. It just comes out of our mouths because we have to discuss it with others in order to learn enough about it to make an internal decision (and Ji can take a long time to make up its mind, hence P flightiness.)

^ Just another reason P/J is by far the biggest difference.

 

[simulatedworld]

We're working with a field that consists entirely of personal opinion, Jag.

Not a grain of deductive certainty is ever to be found here.

What's your point?

 

[Poki]

Sheesh, intuitive minds, gotta spell everything out

Ok, I will take it to simple terms. TiNi is used to piece together how thing logically fit at a very deep level to create a pattern or theory. Ne is good at this, but more in terms of breadth. So Ne would be like very quick and dirty TiNi or FiNi, something we dont really control conciously. Then someone like an INTP would logically break this down into Si data using Ti.

Im wondering if for Ti types Ne or Se would be driven by a subconcious FiNi or FiSi then processed through Ti.

An INTP would be Ne(FiNi) -> Ti - >Si

Like I said just a thought.


edit: to define what I see as Si look at what an INTP actually comes up with. The come up with the detail of the theory. The use Ti to take Ne and create detail of it. The detail is the constants, the invividual functions, etc.

Just to take it a little further in a way I can personally relate to. Se for an ISTP would be FiSi as unconcious functions. So it makes quick decisions on what it feels are important. It can take in huge amounts and quickly dispose of things that we dont feel is important. I know when I am in Se it tends to also hit feelings which would explain why music and things are tied to feelings.

For all we know, the majority of people type themselves how they wish themselves to be-- rather than how they really are.

I can see this, I would even go so far as to say that some people may not only mistype but try to be what they are not because of images that society and those around them hold that say how they should be.

 

[Jaguar]

Sometimes, when a person has provided enough information, I can make good guesses at which functions are responsible for which attitudes and beliefs, but not always.

I take all of these into account in trying to come up with a composite guess, but it's still just a guess.

And your goal is what?
To spread information which probably isn't even true?

When I describe function orders to people, try to take in this context: "Under the assumption that you fit the INTP mold as you say you do, your dominant function is Ti and your auxiliary is Ne."

Did it ever occur to you, to question if the MBTI claims were true to begin with?
It sure as hell was my first thought.

I also never really said that there aren't any people who exist outside of these molds. My belief on this has changed over time--I now consider the molds themselves to be the most effective arrangements of functions in theory, not the only ones that exist in practice.

MOLD? Never mind. It's not even worth it.

There are certainly people who don't fit that order, but they're going to suffer personality imbalances as a result, and most could improve upon their lives by working to improve the auxiliary function that Jungian analysis predicts they should. (Btw, Jung actually DID say that the secondary function in a balanced individual is opposite the dominant "in every respect"--meaning J/P preference as well as direction. It's in Psychological Types and I can find the page number if you want.)

That book was written early on in his career.
Anyone who has studied Jung for any length of time,
knows damn well that decades later even Jung himself,
had second thoughts about what he wrote in that book.

And that's the tragedy of it all.
No one would let the poor guy live it down.
Even when he wanted people to let it go.

So you cling to that old book if you want.
Just because someone once wrote a theory,
doesn't mean it's remotely true.

I'm the one always saying that none of this can be tested or empirically proven, remember? The entire discussion of typology is on the presumption that it can't be proven or quantified!

Yet you behave exactly as if it is. How can you not see this about yourself?
You speak in absolutes! I see it in your posts all the time.
What really pisses me off is how you badger people, about their alleged type.
"You're not INFP, you're INFJ. SEE. SEE."

It's juvenile. God help those NFs you go after.

I know you Te people value external precision and all that, and so you don't tend to release ideas until Ni has had time to thoroughly flesh them out so that can Te can accomplish something meaningful with them, but EP types really don't bother with this. It just comes out of our mouths because we have to discuss it with others in order to learn enough about it to make an internal decision (and Ji can take a long time to make up its mind, hence P flightiness.)

I knew it was coming, you just had to call me a Te.
You can't help yourself. Lol.

In theory I agree with your intentions.
In practice, it is not what you are doing.

For chrissake, you derail threads to tell people how "wrong" they are, about their alleged type.
That's not learning. That's bullshit.

 

[Valuable_Money]

Didnt take time to read the thread.


I think that the MBTI functions are just observations of the tendancys people have.

The function order is just the way it was observed that they seemed to develop,
and for the most part it makes sense, you need a judging function if your perceiving and vice versa, and the concept of teritary funtions and inferiors was based off of observation as well.

What Im getting at is that there are alot of people that dont fit the mold, but most of them dont stray too far from the mold just because a type like Se Ni Fi Te doesnt seem like it would function well. Also just because you have a certain function developed(usualy due to life circumstances) doesnt mean thats part of your function order. If I went according to function tests I would be Ne Ni Ti Fe Si, Ni isnt really part of my function order, I had to develop it due to difficultys in my life that required it.

(dear lord I rambled on here) ok to summerize things, MBTI is an ovservation of human behavior it is not a dictation of what human behavior should be.

 

[Jaguar]

I can see this, I would even go so far as to say that some people may not only mistype but try to be what they are not because of images that society and those around them hold that say how they should be.

I believe that. Absolutely do.
So, about that S preference of yours-- is it real,
or part of your persona to hide your Ni?

 

[simulatedworld]

--long post--

Except I don't go about it as if it's absolutely certain because I constantly point out that it isn't. I'm the one always telling everyone how uncertain the entire thing is and how tests don't mean anything; the fact that I share my interpretations of people's type and functional breakdowns doesn't really indicate that I believe them to be 100% certain or anything close to it, Te bias on your part aside.

I rarely speak in absolutes; you are simply incapable of interpreting what I say in non-absolute terms. And yeah, that is a Te weakness, whether or not you care to admit it.

And if you want to complain about badgering people--wow. I don't think any response more than "look at your own infraction history" is necessary for that.

I don't know which is funnier, the fact that an ENTJ just complained to me about not being respectful to people or the fact that you don't even realize how hypocritical you're being.

(And no, before you start whining again, I am NOT saying that 100% of ENTJs are disrespectful. Don't even start.)

 

[Poki]

I believe that. Absolutely do.
So, about that S preference of yours-- is it real,
or part of your persona to hide your Ni?

My S preference is actually real. I have a blast using it and it is what I do for fun. It is real because I dont need to prove it to anyone. I was talking to my brother the other night about driving and the stupid crap we do. Half the things I do no one has any idea I do and I dont say anything because people just tell me its crazy, stupid, you could hurt yourself, blah, blah, blah. I do it for me because I enjoy it and I will hide what society doesnt like. Its a way for me to blow off energy in a way I enjoy and I would rather hide what I do and do what I want than match some stupid image society has of whats right and wrong.

One of my strengths is Se which means I go out and do it. I dont generally talk the talk, I walk the walk. There was a period in my life that I hit over 100MPH daily on the highway and most people have no idea.

I do see what you say and have wondered if in the back of my head I do it because its an image society portrays, instead of trying to fake this image, I live it. Its hard to decide, all I can say for sure is that I enjoy doing these things and I usually do them when it is just me.

 

[brainheart]

Ok, but what is the point in taking function tests then?

I think the only point that's valid in them is it shows you what your absolute weaknesses are so then you can rule out a number of types. For example, my Se, Ni, and Te suck- rules out dominant and auxiliary Ni, Se, or Te functions. Helps narrow it down. But as to what your top functions are... I think it's kind of a jumble.

 

[Jaguar]

I don't know which is funnier, the fact that an ENTJ just complained to me about not being respectful to people or the fact that you don't even realize how hypocritical you're being.

(And no, before you start whining again, I am NOT saying that 100% of ENTJs are disrespectful. Don't even start.)

If anyone whines, it's you.
You get all teary-eyed since I shut you down all the time.
Maybe I should send you a box of tissue before you cry your next river.

This isn't about being "respectful to people," in general.
It's about you being an arrogant little prick to people who have the right to decide what their function strengths are.
Who the hell are you to tell a forum member what their function order is?
Who the hell are you to tell them what functions they have developed?

You do it all the damn time.
Knock it off.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

K, I am really liking reading the interchange of ideas between Evan, Sim, and Jag. But I have to say that the main thing that doesn't seem to jive is Jag's hostility. Personally, I think you all have very interesting perspectives, and intelligent insights, but sometimes the anger gets in the way of the information, at least having to sift out the anger to get to the information. Then I wonder how much of your insight, Jag, is tainted by your personal feelings.

I know one or two other entj males irl. The one I know best is an angry guy, but you'd never know it because he hides behind this mask of reggae-hippy-grunge-freestyle-bike-ridin-free-lovin-dude. He and I sort-of dig each other, and have always clicked in this cool way, which i think must be our shared Ni, but when I talk to him, I can tell he has very high standards for others, although he still tries to hide it. He'll have this great friend, then in a few months the great friend will be written off for some reason. No one is ever good enough over the long haul. His wife (who is my very good friend) tells me he pretty much hates everyone, including her friends, who he never deems do the Right thing according to his standards. He hates his family, her family, etc. But he seems totally loving and normal. He was very repressed by his own fundamental Christian family in childhood, so I wonder if that's where a lot of the frustration with others comes from; that judgmental nurturing he got. Or if it's just entj-ness in its immature form.

The other entj I know slightly is a typical field marshall type who tells everyone how they should live their life. Do entjs just have a harder time assimilating in society because of their primary function being a judging function, combined with that Ni voodoo (to quote lauren ashley ) , with Fe being really lower on the list? I'd think that with all that mix entjs would be awesome at knowing the Truth (this is where his wife has probs: she is xsfp and says he is Always Right, Really Right, so she always feels inferior), but unless they really work on their F, perhaps they should limit their dealings with people? Because people and entjs don't really seem to get along very well, unless the entj is shining his approval on them momentarily. Btw, her husband thinks personality stuff and pyschology in general is a load of crap, and only has disdain for it.

Jag, I'm not implying you are anything like these guys, I'm just interested in hearing more about what entj males are like, and if apparent hostility isn't really noticed by them, or if they just don't care. I really mean this as my reflection in entjs and interacting with others, and what I've noticed on these boards. I thought if I was thinking these thoughts, others might be too, and that it would be a pertinent point to iterate, for the sake of interesting discussion. Not that you care either way, but I like your input.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Summary: It seems like entjs seem to really have a gift for seeing/knowing the truth, but at the cost of being able to live among/relate to people. That's a tough trade-off, for them and for others who like/work with them.

Thoughts?

 

[Jaguar]

K, I am really liking reading the interchange of ideas between Evan, Sim, and Jag. But I have to say that the main thing that doesn't seem to jive is Jag's hostility.

Simulated and I have a long history of shooting shit at each other.
It's that simple.
If it bothers you, ignore it.

He was very repressed by his own fundamental Christian family in childhood, so I wonder if that's where a lot of the frustration with others comes from; that judgmental nurturing he got. Or if it's just entj-ness in its immature form.

An ENTJ conforming, traditional, fundamentalist?
What are you going to tell me next, ESTJs are anarchists, planning to raid Washington?

The other entj I know slightly is a typical field marshall type who tells everyone how they should live their life.

Congrats, you just described the opposite of me once again.

Why do you think he is ENTJ? Sounds like an unhealthy FJ.
I fight with those who dare tell others how to live their life.

Hell, I got on an INFJs ass in this forum for being a bible-thumping, religious fundamentalist,
who dared to think he had the right to tell people how to live their life,
and worse yet--thought he had the right to actually deny certain types of people equal, legal, rights.

You're not going to like this, but it is far more likely to see an FJ tell people how they "should" live their life, than an NTJ.
I cringe when I hear the words: "should" or "appropriate."
Those words are FJ words pounded into their heads, by their fundamentalist parents.

Do entjs just have a harder time assimilating in society

Okay, you are still batting zero.
Where are you getting these ideas from?

Think about what you are saying.
If an ENTJ had a hard time assimilating into society,
he or she could never organize anything, much less a group of people,
a team, a company, or anything.

Seriously, I'd like to help you.
But when you start saying things that I cannot even remotely identify with,
or that have anything in common with my life, I have no idea what to say to you.

BTW, if I were to tell you what I thought ENTJ males were like,
it would mean I would have to contradict much of what I have said in this forum.
I do not think all XXXX have the same function orders.
And by MBTI definition, that means they aren't even the same type.

By moving even a single function in the order,
you have now nullified the assumed type, and created a new type.