User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 110

  1. #41
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    How so?

    Ne and Se have literally zero overlap. They cannot perceive even one of the same things.

    Ne and Ni CAN have overlap. As long as the premises in the internal standard match up with reality in the slightest bit, the exact same perceptual data is completely possible.
    You're missing the point--whether or not they perceive the same things is subservient to the attitudes and methodology by which they make these perceptions.

    Ne and Se have a great deal of overlap. They perform similar tasks in different arenas; both prefer to learn through a purely experiential approach and reject the ideas of planning ahead, feeling that "jumping in and getting your hands dirty" is the only way to really learn anything.

    Ne and Se are both focused on the external environment and require validation from the environment in order to make sense of their perceptions.

    Ni and Si share none of these properties and are focused merely on one's own internal perceptions of the environment, be it the literal or theoretical one. Neither Pi function relies upon the external world for information and both are totally closed to external validation/invalidation of their ideas, and neither is willing to leap into any new situation unprepared because neither knows how to respond to its environment without a period of preparation and internal consideration.

    Once again, it's the direction of the function and its Perception/Judgment quality that matters, not which type of Perception or which type of Judgment.

    Why do you think ENTPs are so much more similar to ESTPs than to ENTJs? They share Pe+Ji; ENTJs are a totally different animal with Te/Ni. The way they prioritize everything is completely different, and yet they share Thinking and iNtuition with ENTPs.

    The more important difference is that they extrovert the Judgment function and introvert Perception--no P type does this and it makes a dramatic difference to their internal motivations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Once again, you prove to me you have no consistency of thought.

    Do not make me find your old post where you agreed with me,
    that predetermined function orders are bullshit.
    Now you sound like the poster boy for MBTI.
    Make up your mind.

    I happen to agree with the OP.
    One of the first warning bells that went off for me was this ridiculous notion of symmetry.
    To know people, is to know complexity.
    The thought of this symmetrical paint-by-numbers approach is more than I can bear.
    For the 10,000th time,

    I do not use MBTI, nor do I believe that there do not exist people who have functional orders outside of its 16 molds.

    I simply believe that such people lack skills vital to successful interaction and typically suffer from personality imbalance because having E, I, J, and P functions at the ready makes one most adaptable and most able to handle the greatest number of situations with the best strategy for each.

    I trust that I don't need to explain what happens when one lacks a strong E/I/P/J function.

    People with two introverted functions can often improve their results in life by working to catch up the extroverted function that Jungian psychology predicts "should" be the auxiliary. It should be intuitively obvious why this is, and why it's also true if you rely on two extroverted (or two perceiving, or two judging) functions--you are ill-equipped to handle situations in life which require the opposite type of ability.

    By the way, cut the crap about no consistency of thought. I'm really getting pretty tired of you Jumping to this ridiculous conclusion before you've bothered taking the time to grasp my ideas. Quit whining.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #42
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You're missing the point--whether or not they perceive the same things is subservient to the attitudes and methodology by which they make these perceptions.

    Ne and Se have a great deal of overlap. They perform similar tasks in different arenas; both prefer to learn through a purely experiential approach and reject the ideas of planning ahead, feeling that "jumping in and getting your hands dirty" is the only way to really learn anything.

    Ne and Se are both focused on the external environment and require validation from the environment in order to make sense of their perceptions.

    Ni and Si share none of these properties and are focused merely on one's own internal perceptions of the environment, be it the literal or theoretical one. Neither Pi function relies upon the external world for information and both are totally closed to external validation/invalidation of their ideas, and neither is willing to leap into any new situation unprepared because neither knows how to respond to its environment without a period of preparation and internal consideration.

    Once again, it's the direction of the function and its Perception/Judgment quality that matters, not which type of Perception or which type of Judgment.

    Why do you think ENTPs are so much more similar to ESTPs than to ENTJs? They share Pe+Ji; ENTJs are a totally different animal with Te/Ni. The way they prioritize everything is completely different, and yet they share Thinking and iNtuition with ENTPs.

    The more important difference is that they extrovert the Judgment function and introvert Perception--no P type does this and it makes a dramatic difference to their internal motivations.
    It depends which dimension of similarity you're talking about. I'm more interested in cognition than attitude...you seem more interested in attitude.

    Whatever.

    I think ENTP and ENTJ talk about more similar kinds of things than ENTPs and ESTPs. But yeah, ESTPs and ENTPs have the same sort of attitude about the environment. Meh.

  3. #43
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    ESTPs and ENTPs also have the same sort of attitudes about internal consistency. They won't go along with anything that doesn't seem internally logically consistent on paper. ENTJs, on the other hand, couldn't really care less about internal consistency as long as it works. They won't fudge details or accept "close enough" when it comes to working with the outer world, just as ETPs won't do that when working with internal logic.

    The fact that they talk about similar things is not very significant. That's just a surface behavior; it doesn't really say much about the internal motivation, which is really the basis of typology.

    ESTPs and ENTPs are both far more likely to act on impulse and just fill in their gaps in understanding as they go--Pe is good at that.

    You won't often catch an ENTJ unprepared, though. They even have the same dominant function as ESTJs, to whom they are far more similar than they are to ENTPs.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #44
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    451 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INFp Ni
    Posts
    1,373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    The only ones I've said imitate each other are shadow functions
    That's what I was referring to with my last sentence, so there isn't much about my post, if anything, that you disagree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    People who think they directly exercise shadow functions are basing it on erroneous understanding of what each function is.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "directly exercise," but I can consciously use any of the eight functions, and I would be surprised if that isn't true for every healthy human being. There are functions that a person will use more frequently and with greater skill, of course, but someone with an Se shadow doesn't black out or fall under possession when they go jogging.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  5. #45
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ESTPs and ENTPs also have the same sort of attitudes about internal consistency.

    The fact that they talk about similar things is not very significant. That's just a surface behavior; it doesn't really say much about the internal motivation, which is really the basis of typology.

    ESTPs and ENTPs are both far more likely to act on impulse and just fill in their gaps in understanding as they go--Pe is good at that.

    You won't often catch an ENTJ unprepared, though. They even have the same dominant function as ESTJs, to whom they are far more similar than they are to ENTPs.
    I'm curious...did you even read my statement about how this depends on which dimensions of similarity you're talking about?

  6. #46
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    I can consciously use any of the eight functions, and I would be surprised if that isn't true for every healthy human being.
    Actually, perception is by definition unconscious.

  7. #47
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    451 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INFp Ni
    Posts
    1,373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Actually, perception is by definition unconscious.
    Probably according to the MBTI, but not according to me.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  8. #48
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I'm curious...did you even read my statement about how this depends on which dimensions of similarity you're talking about?
    Yes, and it's my contention that my preferred dimension of similarity is quite a bit more significant to psychological type than yours.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki
    I'm not sure what you mean by "directly exercise," but I can consciously use any of the eight functions, and I would be surprised if that isn't true for every healthy human being. There are functions that a person will use more frequently and with greater skill, of course, but someone with an Se shadow doesn't black out or fall under possession when they go jogging.
    Were there a form of perception that you could not consciously use, how would you know it if you automatically assume you can use all of them consciously?

    As for your last sentence here--obviously. NPs use Si (not Se) to directly perceive their environment and Ne to intuit how to respond quickly and instinctively to it. Ne is just not as good at responding to the physical environment as it is at responding to theoretical or abstract environments.

    You don't actually need Se to see or directly experience what's going on around you. Si will do that too; it just stores away these impressions for later instead of responding to them immediately in an externalized manner.

    Notice how Ne doms often respond to their physical environments in inappropriate ways? They are using Ne to intuit answers to Si's sense impressions, and they are not very good at it--most Ne users are pretty clumsy and unaware of their surroundings in comparison to Se users.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #49
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Yes, and it's my contention that my preferred dimension of similarity is quite a bit more significant to psychological type than yours.
    Depends on the type of inference you like to make with the typological framework.

    MBTI is descriptive only. I like to describe what people are interested in more than how they prefer to structure their time. I'm more interested in the middle two letters than the first and last. If you want to focus more on the first and last, that's fine. But don't speak to me as if I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm trying to say we're both right; you're trying to say you're right and I'm wrong. That's a much more narrow view, and it isn't great for discussion, unless your goal of discussion is to prove to everyone how right you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    Probably according to the MBTI, but not according to me.
    Mk. Well you may as well not use the same words then, since it's pretty confusing.

  10. #50
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Depends on the type of inference you like to make with the typological framework.

    MBTI is descriptive only. I like to describe what people are interested in more than how they prefer to structure their time. I'm more interested in the middle two letters than the first and last. If you want to focus more on the first and last, that's fine. But don't speak to me as if I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm trying to say we're both right; you're trying to say you're right and I'm wrong. That's a much more narrow view, and it isn't great for discussion, unless your goal of discussion is to prove to everyone how right you are.
    The way they structure time is, again, just one minor surface behavior.

    The point here is the fundamental attitudes by which information is derived and provided to the judging function for use.

    ENTJs and ENTPs simply don't value the same things or the same approaches at all.

    I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that you're focusing on similarities that are less significant because people with similar functional directions tend to display much more similar basic value systems in terms of life philosophy and approach to learning than those who share the same letters in the middle two spots.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

Similar Threads

  1. Definition of the 8 cognitive functions with real life examples?
    By DreamBeliever in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-07-2015, 12:02 PM
  2. How to determine function order and what the functions mean... AS A NINJA
    By BlackCat in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-13-2009, 07:59 PM
  3. [JCF] What is the function order?
    By INTJ123 in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-16-2009, 04:34 PM
  4. Where does the introverted/extraverted function difference show up?
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-19-2008, 11:04 AM
  5. The Influence of Functions on Grammar
    By JustDave in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-29-2008, 11:01 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO