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  1. #1
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Default Intertype Relations

    People have said that they like Socionics better because it goes more into intertype dynamics, where MBTI doesn't. But what is Beebe's model but the groundwork for the same dynamics. That is what attracted me to it in the first place, and still makes me think of it as the most complete.
    Problem is, there does not seem to be any complete listing of all the intertype relations. You find only particular examples in Beebe's articles/interviews or knowledgeable people's discussions. I recently even contacted him, asking which article would contain the most information, and while he pointed to "Understanding Consciousness Through The Theory Of Psychological Types" which contained a lot of useful information about how he put together the model (goes more in depth than "Evolving the Eight Process Model"), it doesn't go into examples for all type relations, and apparently, he has not put together any such project.

    So here I propose names for all of the type relations, which do imply what the relations would be like. A few concepts are taken from Socionics, as they seem like good descriptors, and for familiarity sake.

    Compatible (same quadra)
    XXXX Identity (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 = A1, B2, C1, D2, A2, B1, C2, D1)
    yXXX I/E companion (2,1, 4,3 = B2, A1; D2, C1; etc)
    Xyyy [right/left brain] counterpart (syntonic block opposite); (3, 4, 1, 2)
    yyyy syntonic opposite (aka "dual"; Beebe: "inverse relationship") (4, 3, 2, 1)

    Incompatible (alternate quadra)
    yXXy dystonic parallel (opposing personality/attitude-antagonistic) (5,6,7,8 = A2, B1, etc.)
    XXXy J/P antitype (aka Quasi-identity) (B1, A2, D1, C2, etc)
    yyyX dystonic block opposite (7,8, 5,6, etc)
    XyyX dystonic (total) opposite (McAlpine, "Dynamic Opposite") (8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1)

    Rationally compatible (adjacent quadra)
    XyXX rational comrade/(kindred) (A1, C2, B1, D2 etc)
    yyXX rational semicomrade
    XXyy semi-benefit [because of shared hero-child relationship with common S/N "language"]
    yXyy irrational semiopposite

    Irrationally compatible (opposite quadra)
    XXyX irrational comrade/(kindred) (D1, B2, C1, A2)
    yXyX irrational semicomrade
    XyXy social image semi-antitype ["social image" = I/E + T/F]
    yyXy rational semiopposite (semi-dual)

    -------------------

    Compatible (Alpha quadra)
    INTP (Identity)
    ENTP I/E companion
    ISFJ left brain counterpart (syntonic block opposite);
    ESFJ syntonic opposite (dual)

    incompatible (Gamma Quadra)
    ENTJ dystonic parallel (opposing personality)
    INTJ J/P antitype (Quasi-identity)
    ESFP dystonic block opposite
    ISFP dystonic (total) opposite

    rationally compatible (Beta quadra)
    ISTP rational comrade
    ESTP rational semicomrade
    INFJ semi-benefit
    ENFJ irrational semiopposite (semi-dual)

    irrationally compatible (Delta quadra)
    INFP irrational comrade
    ENFP irrational semicomrade
    ISTJ social image semi-antitype
    ESTJ rational semiopposite
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  2. #2
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    My dad, (INTP) seemed to be very fond of my mother, (ESFJ).

    They had absolutely nothing to ever talk about, but he never seemed to mind.

    Over all, it was an unhealthy relationship, though.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

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  3. #3
    Pose! Salt n' pepper's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    My dad, (INTP) seemed to be very fond of my mother, (ESFJ).

    They had absolutely nothing to ever talk about, but he never seemed to mind.

    Over all, it was an unhealthy relationship, though.
    Cool. My parents have the same type relationship. They are married and have been for a long time. I think they are the only people they've ever been with.

    They don't talk much. And I get the sense my mother still has a hard time understanding my dads way of communicating and seeing things. My dad however, understands perfectly what my mom is saying. But not always why she's saying or acting a certain way. I guess he figures it out through the bigger picture.

    My mom usually goes along with all of his plans and ambitions. He's very independent, and she's very dependent of him. Maybe that's why they're still together.

    At times, they do seem happy, but that's during times when my dad is less himself and more "happy, carefree dad". Then they seem to get along better.

    I know my dad doesn't appreciate a lot of things my mom does and how she does them. But he has ultimately accepted her for who she is, and vise versa.

  4. #4
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    My problem with a single solution method is that not all type compatibilities are created equal, and I have yet to see a solution that addresses that.

    For example, both of these would be compatible dual, inverse relationships:

    INTP - ESFJ = Conflict of fundamental needs.
    INFP - ESTJ = Compliment of fundamental needs.

    Communication is an issue with both matches, but INFP-ESTJ is a much more natural fit than INTP-ESFJ imo. But then you have the fact that gender plays a big role in the ESTJ-INFP dynamic. INFP males don't fit the standard, default gender expectations, and that can cause a problem to an ESTJ.

    You could say the same for Identity relationships. I have a very hard time seeing how ENTJ-ENTJ would fare nearly as well as INFJ-INFJ.
    Last edited by Udog; 09-22-2009 at 10:11 AM. Reason: Reversed ENTJ-ENTJ and INFJ-INFJ comparision. Fixed.

  5. #5
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Let me elaborate more on my parents' relationship.

    My mother (ESFJ) was my father's long-term mistress until they finally got married for 26 or so years. (Note: 26 years was how long they were together until my father passed away).

    My father pursued my mother, for the first year, solely, by writing her love letters.

    Then he wined her and dined her, bought her a house, gave her three children, plenty of jewelry, a promise ring, and that's about it.

    He was a radiologist, and he would have dinner at our house every night, when he was home, we basically had to leave him and my mom alone.

    My mother cooked him dinner, drew his bath, massaged his back, and served his every need while he spent the entire time reading his many books or periodicals or magazines.

    *They rarely spoke to each other*

    Except to fight, when my mother would have enough, and start to scream at him, (meanwhile his nose would still be behind his reading material).

    Why my dad liked my mom?

    She was/is drop dead beautiful, she is servile by nature, and, well, "dumb".

    EDIT: And, excluding finances, took care of their three children entirely without his help.

    Why my mom like my dad?

    She was naive, and thought that he could provide her children with a better life than she had.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  6. #6
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    With a dual relationship; though they look like the most opposite (because of all letter being opposite, and all four functions being reverse); according to eight-process theory, they are really still "ego-compatible", because at least it is still the same four primary functions. So according to standard function development theory, they should be gowing together as the tertiary and inferior develop. Yet each others' dominant will be their inferior, and the lowest (most rejected) conscious function, so they may act like they hate this type more than anyone else. But all they need to do is give each other a chance.

    My wife and I have things to talk about, though in the beginning, she always said she had to come into my interests to have any sort of relationship. Earlier on, she was more into completing school, and for recreational subjects, it was movies and such, but my attention span finds it hard to sit down for a movie. I usually have to catch some scene that interests me and then draws me into it, and in other cases. While a lot of her movies are romantic stuff (of course), she also likes psychological type stuff. (People with problems, etc; documentaries of psychopathic people, etc). If the lead character reminds her of me in some way, then she encourages me to watch for that reason. (Sometimes I don't want to watch some story about someone with my problems).
    And she can be into sci-fi as well. (She got me to watch a couple of the Alien series, but it was too gory for me; then it jumped shark in her and others' opinion. I took interest in AVP just to see the Alien meet his match! Then, we always try to see the latest Star Wars movie with her ISTJ best friend who is the biggest sci-fi buff among us). We also can discuss news events.

    Before type, my interests were mostly the NYC subways (where I now work), cartoons and Christian debate. I at one point suggested her to join a book club (like I had my transit club), so she then had more of an interest of her own. And I would go sometimes and meet the people (I liked it for seeing new places, mostly, though. Got to go into well-off Manhattan apartments or suburban homes at times!)

    More recently, I managed to get her to join here, (as Literary Sanguine Lady), but she's been so busy, she's not had time (back in school now), and usually just plays the Sims for computer recreation. She did come to our last NYC Get Together. She says she won't be able to make the next one this Fri.

    She perhaps might be a bit different from typical ESFJ's. I had been noting that she does seem to have dveloped a lot of the functions, most likely from life experiences. ESFJ seems to fit the best (obvious strong Fe, and it seems to me with a parental Si and tertiary Ne, and fitting APS score of Sanguine-Melancholy), but she seems to have strong Fi, Se, and according to her, Ni (though I can't tell really), and can seem very Te-ish at times as well. And the fact that she can relate to me and my intellectual pursuits so well (and does seem to sapire to it. Admits liking Alton Brown and other such "nerdy" intellectuals), also would support inferior Ti.

    {this wasnt supposed to be an analysis of her}; but anyway, I see SFP females (Rachel Ray, etc), and while on the surface, they look more compatible and even appealing than ESFJ from being P's (more light; easy going, not as fussy about order); looking at them cognitively, we would probably be the ones to have nothing at all to talk about. My logic would go right past them, and they would just be into sensory experience and not the past like I'm into.
    As SF's they would still probably have the same likes and needs of romance and such.

    Though even that could be turned to good use. Another gem I found from Beebe is in the article "TYPOLOGY IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF INTEGRITY" http://www.centerpointec.com/files/t...evelopment.pdf
    In this one, he is interviewd by an ENFP, with an INTP husband, and discusses the positive side of the Ti "trickster" dynamic I had never heard of:

    ...adaptation that allows you to get through the jungle of human relations. A certain ability to cope that the trickster brings up for us. It saves us. So you could find one introverted function that had a sense of humor about introverted people and understood how to get along with them.

    ...enables you as someone on the psychological path to survive emotionally the vicissitudes of individuation. He validates that the things you have to go through are real, that is, really belong to your life and not just to your foolishness.


    Still, since it is the good side of a shadow, it would be more in terms of resolutions of negative situations, and there would still be a "missing" of each other around internal logic and values in normal situations; and hence, trouble finding things to talk about.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  7. #7
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    My problem with a single solution method is that not all type compatibilities are created equal, and I have yet to see a solution that addresses that.

    For example, both of these would be compatible dual, inverse relationships:

    INTP - ESFJ = Conflict of fundamental needs.
    INFP - ESTJ = Compliment of fundamental needs.

    Communication is an issue with both matches, but INFP-ESTJ is a much more natural fit than INTP-ESFJ imo. But then you have the fact that gender plays a big role in the ESTJ-INFP dynamic. INFP males don't fit the standard, default gender expectations, and that can cause a problem to an ESTJ.
    Where did you get that info from?
    Is it something about Fi/Te that it is more complimentary than Ti/Fe?
    You could say the same for Identity relationships. I have a very hard time seeing how ENTJ-ENTJ would fare nearly as well as INFJ-INFJ.
    To me, the Galen correlation explains why. ENTJ's are pure Choleric, and they want things their own way, so yes, they clash with each other, and both being aggressive about it. INFJ is Melancholy-Phlegmatic or Melancholy-Supine, so they are both reserved and cooperative.
    Perhaps to answer my own question; ESTJ is Choleric-Melancholy, and almost the same as ENTJ; just less pragmatic. (will be more likely to be loyal to an insititution, yet is still controlling within it). INFP is very Supine and/or Phlegmatic, and likely to go along and even want the other person to take responsibility.
    INTP's NT is Choleric, and we are stubborn about things, but ESFJ's SJ is Melancholy, which is just as critical (structure-focused) yet resists the Choleric's control (and the ESF is Sanguine and has the aggressive hot temper), so it is a constant battle with those two.

    The "fundamental needs" might possibly lie more with the Galen temperant factors (I/E, people/task), so:
    INTP/ESFJ:
    both informative, structure-focused
    INTP: introverted, pragmatic; ESFJ: extraverted, cooperative

    INFP/ESTJ:
    both cooperative
    INFP: introverted, informative, motive focus; ESTJ: extraverted, directive, structure focused

    So INTP/ESFJ actually have more in common in that model as well, but it's probably the cooperative/pragmatic clash that makes the difference. And INTP/ESFJ might both share structure focus, but one will be abstract structure, and the other, concrete structure, so that will be a clash too.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  8. #8
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    That's actually a much better answer than I would have provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Where did you get that info from?

    Is it something about Fi/Te that it is more complimentary than Ti/Fe?
    From real life (limited) and forum pattern observation. Not a perfect data set, admittedly.

    In general, opposite pairings tend to have a lower chance at happiness. (See link below.) When I do see them work, they are amongst some of the best relationships though. They generally have amazing chemistry - it's keeping that chemistry going that proves to be the challenge.

    Perhaps the theory above talks about potential compatibility instead of likelihood of success? ESFJ-INTP might be very dualicious, but it isn't very likely to have success. The theory may be true, but needs a special asterisk to denote the implausibility of it all.

    PersonalityDesk - Resources - Compatibility and Your Myers-Briggs

    To me, the Galen correlation explains why.
    I admit my depth of knowledge doesn't go that deep, although I do like how the system you are using provides a possible explanation. Perhaps a system that meshes the two together would create a much better and nuanced prediction system? The algorithm wouldn't be so clean and elegant, though.

    One thing I've noticed (with help, this isn't fully my brain child) is that the more balanced someone is with a function (closer to the 50/50 T/F divide, for example), the better off they are with someone else that's close. So a moderate F with a moderate F will provide comfort, and a moderate F with a moderate T is a good compliment. Likewise, a hardcore T is best served with another T... or perhaps a hardcore F.

    The idea is that moderation is malleable, and works best with someone else who can also flex a bit. Moderation with a strong trait will cause one to flex and unable to provide much potential to influence the other.

    Of course, none of that really helps with your theory. Heh.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Gewitter27's Avatar
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    Scans the Compatibility area...

    Hmm...
    YES!!!
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaLGS8_gE7g"]YESH[/YOUTUBE]

    I knew I was into something good when I started wanting an ENTP girl like a starving coyote wants a roast beef sandwich!!!
    I 96% N 93% T 75% P 63% 5w4 sp/sx/so ILI
    Ti>Ne>Te>Ni>Si>Fi>Se>Fe
    I'm interested in what you percieve me to be. Johari/Nohari

  10. #10
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Why would an INTP not be compatible with an ENTJ?
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

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