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  1. #1
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Default endless confusion

    I thought I'd jot these thoughts down as the same pattern keeps popping up over and over again in my life. It makes me a little sad, but you sort of get used to this stuff.

    I wonder if we ever really understand each other-or if every interaction we have is based on endless misinterrpretation-we assume we understand but we do not.

    This is my pattern:
    I have many EXTP collegues. I initially interact with then in an Ne heavy mode. This can be very fun, interactive, playful, and thought provoking. They appear very fun and playful as they are often using Tertiary Fe.

    As they become more comfortable around me they become more honest-Ti starts to show more. I can handle this as I interact with Te still. However eventually I trust them enough that I let Fi show. Then the friendship falls apart.

    They enjoy the delicacy and sweetness of Fi in little bits, little tendrils, they enjoy the silliness and request poetry, but they dont want to deal with the full deal. When I trust them, I let them see my emotional sensitivity and then they retreat.

    It is just being honest about why I enjoy my job, why I am frustrated, and being honest about how I feel emotionally. I dont have breakdowns, I follow up on my obligations, I do everything I need to. It is just that any display of emotion-even a pissed email explaining my position, sends them into an Fe retreat.


    Do you notice these patterns yourself? Do you ever find yourself being dishonest to your core, knowing that the "friends" you have dont really want you for what you are underneath, but rather for the surface you project?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    Do you ever find yourself being dishonest to your core, knowing that the "friends" you have dont really want you for what you are underneath, but rather for the surface you project?
    You are hanging out with the wrong crowd, sweetheart.
    They sound like shallow pricks.
    No depth.

    Perhaps you need a change of scenery.
    Birds of a feather flock together in certain environments.
    Be true to who you are, no matter what.

    People like me, for me.
    They actually like me more when they get to know what's underneath.

  3. #3
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Ne...

    You know where you F is going, they don't.

    They are none to keen on emotions, to have some dude land on them in work and not know where he is going and how far, is likely to freak them out a bit I'd think.

    You said "It's not like you are having breakdowns" around them, but they may not know where your stop line is and fear that you are about to cry about stuff... which they potentially don't know how to deal with/are lousy at.

    Just a thought - why not tell them you just want to rant and moan or ofload - which frames what you are about to do - but indicates there is a stop point and they wont have you hugging them or crying....

  4. #4
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    However eventually I trust them enough that I let Fi show. Then the friendship falls apart.

    They enjoy the delicacy and sweetness of Fi in little bits, little tendrils, they enjoy the silliness and request poetry, but they dont want to deal with the full deal. When I trust them, I let them see my emotional sensitivity and then they retreat.
    Ne-Monster, the people you work with seem like assholes. Unfortunately I don't have any good advice or anything to give you, though I must say that I would never reject someone for showing vulnerability. I've had enough Fi-using friends and relatives to know that this can be disastrous for a relationship.

    Having said that, I'm curious to know in what specific ways you've shown your Fi. What specific thing did you do? How exactly did they react?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #5
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    hey guys, thanks for your thoughts.

    These folks are really not at all assholes honestly. They are pretty typical ESTPs and a few ENTPs. They are not evil or even mean. They just are what they are. I accept them for being what they are.

    I never hung around ESTPs when younger as there was a total disconnect-We really dont understand each other at all. The more authentic I become, the more it freaks them out. Very early I learned this so I just avoided them-even not understanding what "them" meant. I am an alien to them.

    These ones are fun and a bit older-30s and 40s. It really shows the diff though between FiTe and TiFe in a very obvious way. Today I watched them throwing each other-friends-under the bus and they didnt really even seem to understand what they were doing. If an issue arises-you blame someone. They would never take the blame for an issue but point at other people instead-even thier own friends. Yet they all seem fine with this...

    My Fi offenses?

    I explained that our workplace can be very unproductive at times and went into some detail about the issues being of long duration and difficult to resolve and how they involve motivational problems, not just laziness. On this note it seemed like just moving to "people" territory was weird for the EXTPs. This wasnt an essay-maybe a two paragraph email. They wanted simple answers and didnt want to deal with human complexity.

    I explained I had a puppy crush on a boy I had never even kissed. I think the crush or even sex would have been okay-they understand hooking up. They could not understand having strong feelings for someone you have never been intimate with. They could not understand why I would avoid this man as he was very confusing to me emotionally.

    I asked to be removed from a project they were working on as I felt I would have put them at a political disadvantage given I had pissed off some folks. I was upset-someone I had a lot of respect for had questioned me without understanding my goals-but I sent an email explaining my rational to the ESTPs-not overly emo really, just open and honest. This totally freaked them out.

    I get frustrated and display my frustration openly-I talk about issues directly. This is something they do not do at all. They are very indirect and do not deal with problems head on. They all bitch behind the scenes but then "play very nicely". I just raise the point openly. I will confront others when they are not working as a team. For the EXTPs, this freaks them out.

    I write them poetry and funny, hysterical emails when I get stressed. i write these to lots of people. My ISTJs love them. But the ESTPs can be kinda odd as they think they are funny, but recognize the social oddness of it and then seem embarressed.

    I have sent a ranting email or two-I dont think these were that bad-maybe overuse of Te much more than Fi.

    What is hard is that the "freak-out" really means they withdraw and then show me a different mask/face. The ESTPs are very, very obvious when they do this. The ENTPs are more subtle and "recover" more quickly. We bond with Ne.

    Trying to be direct (and avoid Ne-ing into stuff) I asked the ESTPs-"have I done something wrong as I noticed you were acting a bit odd towards me lately? " I point out I may miss things they think are obvious, so they should be direct. They deny this, yet then act even more odd.

    I think I am just bizarre.

  6. #6
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Hey

    I'm too wiped out to get into huge detail so will add more in the morning....

    My Fi offenses? - did you then email people? I get lost in your info....

    You are not bizarre, you are just an ENFP.... which is different.

    From what I can see - and I may be lost here is that you email around a bunch of collegues....
    * That when work is slow it de-motivates people (will post stuff tomorrow)
    * That you had a crush on this guy and you want to avoid them....
    * Then you asked to be taken off the project that the guy is working on because you feel akward
    * You had also upset someone...

    Some thoughts (no judgements).

    Can I assume you are over 30 and female?

    I suspect when you are upset you leave chunks out of your communication like the post above which means that it sounds like disjoined rantings.... you miss some of the linkages between your thought (NP - I do it too but not nessesarily when I am upset)... they can't follow your thinking so it seems really weird.

    Next is that you are indulging information and behaviour that in their eyes may be immature - the whole crush on a guy, avoid him, and thus don't want him in your play ground etc miight be seen in that type of light... MIGHT.... It's not unsual for an NFP.... but to voice it to collegues is something they wouldn't do...

    In my experience of ENFPs - is they can come over as projecting a childish image (I think it's the P that is the killer).... so when you are less upset, you are more grounded, when upset it all seems like high school....

    If they see you as having behaved oddly, asking them why they are behaving stand-ofish is like to make them think you are behaving more oddly...

    The main thing here is that you have differences expressing yourself than they do (not better or worse just different).

    can you bullet point (and thats deliberate), the key steps in the event.... for example....

    * Had a meeting with group of EXTPs
    * sent email about feeling:
    embarrised about being atracted to a guy....

    Reasons for the bullets is you are missing linkages between your thoughts, by getting you to be more consise will mean you need to focus on order of events, which will help us understand what is going on.

    I suspect you are just being an ENFP and different but there may be ways to limit the fall out from stuff like this...

  7. #7
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ne-Monster View Post
    These folks are really not at all assholes honestly. They are pretty typical ESTPs and a few ENTPs. They are not evil or even mean. They just are what they are. I accept them for being what they are.
    I'd rather you leave the alleged type out, as there is no proof they are what you claim.
    I've seen people type their co-workers incorrectly 70-80% of the time.
    And that's because you are dealing with their persona-- the mask they wear to work.

    Having said that, I still think these people are assholes; more so after your latest post.
    Anyone who throws their friends under the bus or acts like a two-faced coward, isn't worth knowing or trusting.
    Gender is irrelevant.

    Take care of yourself.
    I wish you nothing but the best--always.

  8. #8
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I'd rather you leave the alleged type out, as there is no proof they are what you claim.
    I've seen people type their co-workers incorrectly 70-80% of the time.
    And that's because you are dealing with their persona-- the mask they wear to work.

    Having said that, I still think these people are assholes; more so after your latest post.
    Anyone who throws their friends under the bus or acts like a two-faced coward, isn't worth knowing or trusting.
    Gender is irrelevant.

    Take care of yourself.
    I wish you nothing but the best--always.
    +1 to what the big spotted cat said above.

    Regardless of type, I am direct and results oriented. I am also humorous and empathetic, but I don't like people that regularly throw pity parties or emotional vampires. Don't waste my time, I have no patience, and I say that with TLC, it's just how I am.

    Those who know me get it, and laugh when I am impatient, as most of the time I am impatient but funny as hell about it, but I really have no damn patience at all, and I laugh like hell (at myself!) when people call me out on it as I know they realize its just me and that its nothing personal, and that maybe they were being a little too dramatic over something that really is simple.

    I guess I'm true to my 7w8-ness, I do not like dealing with overly needy/high maintenance people if I can help it.
    Last edited by Halla74; 09-23-2009 at 05:56 PM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Ok some thoughts....

    These are loose parameters: N types typically take longer to grow into themselves... I know many NTs dont fully mature until they are late 30s early 40s (more so the P types), and I doubt that is different for NFs. The N gives you the gift of vastness which takes time to learn to manage. N types get better with age.

    Blame cultures when it is always someone elses fault is ultimately a culture of fear, this is organisational nor necessarily directly a people issue. You have bravery/fool hardiness (yes they are the same thing) which is good if you manage it well, can cause you trouble if you are the corporate truth teller and can lead you to be manipulated for someone elses cause. In the long term your courage will serve you will, and take you further, but you really need to be careful about the corporate truth teller doesnt end up with you speaking the truth but... always seeing the negative or the problems etc etc. Other people will be tempted to crank you up before meetings in order to express their views rather than your own. Blame cultures are unpleasant and it requires a collective shift not just you. The more people who voice an honest opinion the more the fear culture can be reduced. I personally hate working in fear cultures, but sadly they are all too often par for the course.

    On motivation issues youre almost certainly not wrong (corporate truth teller), but you are promoting a problem not a solution. Before you stick your neck out (and you probably not aware you are sticking your neck out), try and find the essence of a solution to discuss along with the problem which then stops you from being seen to promote the negative, and shows you have insight.

    I get lost in where, when and how and who you were communicating with.

    I explained I had a puppy crush on a boy I had never even kissed. I think the crush or even sex would have been okay-they understand hooking up. They could not understand having strong feelings for someone you have never been intimate with. They could not understand why I would avoid this man as he was very confusing to me emotionally

    OK was this at a meeting, in an email or in the pub after work? Were the people you were speaking to friends or work colleagues..? The former you have an intimate relationship with, the later are just people you work with. Most importantly, its not really the issue about how you see them, its how they see you do they have an intimate relationship with you or professional. This paragraph could be viewed as teen/early 20s behaviour.

    Personally speaking Id find it really strange if someone I dont know fairly intimately talks to me in detail about the love life. In your 20s this is OK-ish, but once you get into your 30s/more senior roles, it becomes pretty weird to be on the receiving end if you are not pretty intimate with people.

    > check to yourself, is this an appropraite conversation to have at work (would your MD have this conversation)

    Again I get lost in where, when and how and who you were communicating with.

    I asked to be removed from a project they were working on as I felt I would have put them at a political disadvantage given I had pissed off some folks. I was upset-someone I had a lot of respect for had questioned me without understanding my goals-but I sent an email explaining my rational to the ESTPs-not overly emo really, just open and honest. This totally freaked them out.

    Clarifying you sent and email telling people you didnt want to do a bit of your job because youd had drama with someone? OK how this might be received is Im to emotional to do my job. Which Im sure is not what you mean or intended, but it is likely to be how a 30-40 year old would receive this information.

    > Check yourself - is this approrpaite behaviour at work (would your MD do it)

    I get frustrated and display my frustration openly-I talk about issues directly. This is something they do not do at all. They are very indirect and do not deal with problems head on. They all bitch behind the scenes but then "play very nicely". I just raise the point openly. I will confront others when they are not working as a team. For the EXTPs, this freaks them out.

    You see this as a good thing, it could be being interpreted as a trouble maker, overly confrontation, potentially aggressive.... yada, yada, yada... Some people cant tolerate direct confrontation. It is politically quite insensitive... see the previous paragraph I quotes you upset someone who matters to the point that you dont want to do your job.

    This problem is an outcome of stuff I mention below....

    Ok... the rest of your post is in similar ilk...

    Ok Im probably wording this badly so give me wiggle room Im not giving out to you, just trying to bottom out what is going on.

    From here I think you need to learn to reign yourself back a big bit. Although you are here posting how do I deal with this, you seem to cause your own headaches.

    Im reading between the lines and would take a guess that you are giving WAY too much information to your colleagues. Youre putting a huge amount of energy into communicating with people how much of that com is positive and actively productive in a working environment... is it all related to e better business outcome?

    It seems like you are ranting at people a lot... you see it from your eyes and not from the receivers eyes of how it appears. You may find this book - Silent Power by Stuart Wilde a good read (and Im not saying apply it fully its a bit bit hippy) .......the principal of not giving your power away. I'm not saying apply it, just be consious that other peopele are on the receiving end of you and the collective of you is likely to be full on.

    It seems you need to tell everyone about your problems (which takes away your productive time and the receivers productive time), confront people, email people etc etc, its unsurprising you are going to get some pretty strange reaction. How do you therefore appear to them? How long is it before people see you as that rant ......Oh god Ive got to deal with their crap -Ive had 4 emails this week about how stressed out/other they are, if I spend all my time supporting them who is going to do my job... etc...

    Your vulnerability - if everyone sees you as voicing what ever is top of your midn, what is to stop them getting you rattled up about their issue and pointing it at their manager - allowing you to do their dirty work. There manager is going to see you ina bad light and the other person as easier to manage

    The odd flake out is OK everyone does it from time to time when under the cosh, if they are pushing themselves, but if its too regular it starts to take over how people will see you.

    I think the biggest challenge ENFPs and ENTPs face is to learn to mange themselves realising the collective force of their behaviour impact on other people. Other people are playing the political/at work mode in order to promote their careers.

    Im sorry if this seems a bit gloomy, but Im trying to unpick what is actually going on. It seems like you are in the process of changing life stage and growing into it.

  10. #10
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    tink, some of what you are saying is right on.

    1. As for the boy-well-all of the estps I work with are hooking up with each other and with lots of other people outside of work. They work hard/play hard. Most are actually in LTRs as well.... They are very open about talking about sex and what they are up to.

    The conversation about the entp boy was one on one with one specific estp man who specifically inquired about the topic outside of work. He asked me. I explained. Based on his conversations with that entp boy, he had assumed we were actually in a relationship. I have no idea what the boy told him, but the estp man assumed we were having sex and had been for awhile. I explained we had never even kissed but that I did care very much for the entp boy.

    Part of the confusion I think lies in "the relationship" I have with these people. What an ESTP and an ENFP consider close friends vs work collegues is almost opposite. The info they would share would be opposite. I would have never explained the situation to an ESTP man who I only had a work relationship with. However this ESTP was very friendly and established a rapport with a tert Fe approach-after he himself has hit on me many times, even though he is married.

    Does this qualify as work collegue or close, intimate personal friend??

    2. Bravery/fool hardiness-dude you are totally right on with that!

    I stand up for what is the correct thing to do. The entp boy above once said "You are thier hero" with respect to all the other folks on my project. It's a very clear demarcation here. Fi folks-INTJs, ISTJs, ENFPs and even the few ESTJs and ENTJ all think I am awesome. They respect my honesty, drive, idealism and integrity.

    My Fe containing folks are almost all EXTPs-with two ISFJs. The tert Fe users are my freak out crowd-the ENTPs know I can get thier shit done. The ESTPs dont understand but know I can get people-my Fis-to do things. They dont know how or why-they just know I can.

    3. You are very correct with the "sharing of emo"

    Awhile back while chatting with Jeno, we talked about Fi vs Ti. For an ENTP they seek affirmation externally that thier NeTi derived ideas have value. Not just by telling them it turns out-but by seeing those ideas become reality.

    I didnt understand this same pattern is in ENFPs. I knew NeFi needed external affirmation but I didnt understand what that meant till yesterday.

    Fi seeks someone to confirm that the feelings I have-sad, happy or whatever-are okay and correct-that they are okay to have. I just want someone to say-it is okay that you are frustrated, okay that you are angry, okay that you are sad.

    Then I am fine. Actually the emo goes away then. It dissipates.

    But when around Tert Fe users, you get the opposite response- "shit, what is all that emo? " Instead of getting a pat on the head, an affirmation that would allow me to buckle down and then kick ass, I get a retraction of thier support-thus then it makes me cycle back and question my own emotions even more, and make me even more upset and emo.

    The nice thing is that now that I understand a pattern-I can short cut the response. I guess most folks figure this shit out via trial and error huh? hehe


    HOWEVER the big downside here-I will connect closely with others by sharing my weakness, my emotions, how I feel. I open up and seek affirmation and then return that affirmation-ie love-to you. If I TRUST you, I will share this-however that is not ever what the EXTPs seem interested in. If they trust you they tell you what they think.

    This means that I should keep them at arms length as NeTe friends only mostly as Fi will always make them uncomfortable. However again knowing this helps me avoid repeating the pattern.

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