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Thread: Ti impressions

  1. #31
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raindancing View Post
    The only INTP I know is my husband, some things I've noticed about him:

    - Quite a few people are intimidated by him, most often female ESFJs but also some male ISFJs and some male and female ESTJs.

    I have the most experience with how ESFJs see him, so here is a bit more of my perspective on that.

    ESFJ's view:

    - unapproachable
    - intelligent
    - cold
    - critical
    - intelligent
    - stubborn
    - intelligent

    I have had some come to me worried that he didn't like them and wanting to know why. You can also tell from their body language whenever he comes into the room and the fact that they very rarely address him. Questions will be directed to me in a round about sort of way. Some have made remarks (when he wasn't around) about how smart he is, with almost a reverent or hushed voice (it's very weird).
    All of this is probably because he doesn't say much around them. If he finds conversation boring, he will just sit there and not say anything. Not in an aggressive way, just not interested. Then when he does say something, they invariably give it huge significance (this is quite amusing, they do this even when he says something that from anyone else would be taken as a normal comment). It seems there are two main things that throw them off: his lack of playing by normal social rules and their view of him being more intelligent than them. Both of these things cause them to be unsure how to interact with him.


    INFP (me):

    It's a little tricky for me to separate the Ne from the Ti; when we're together he can be quite silly.

    - Intelligent (of course)
    - Calm and collected
    - Analyzing

    Hmm I'm having trouble thinking of things that are just Ti... everything is too interconnected.

    Other random things:
    - Has a hard time sticking with things (figure it out and then gets bored). This is particularly noticeable in computer games. He's so excited to play a new one, but I can't think of the last time he finished one.
    - Great sense of humour
    - Doesn't care what other people think about him
    - Dislikes things that are commonly seen as trendy/cool. Has a negative bias (which he admits) toward things that are popular
    - Dislikes things that are obvious or unsubtle (in movies, music, conversation, etc)
    - Can be very critical of other people in an observational way
    - Not critical of me
    - Reacts strongly (for him) against anything he perceives as manipulation. ()
    - And many many more things that I can't think of right now because I'm too tired.
    To SFJ's the Ti would be intimidating (yet notice how they have this fascination with the "intelligent" part of it); to ESTJ's it's oppositional, and they probably think it's out in space.
    So the Ne is what he would share in common with you (you'll perceive things the same way), and for both types, it often leads to that tendency of not sticking with things.

    The Ti would be stuff like the "Calm and collected", "Analyzing", criticalness and dislike of manipulation.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Wow that is kinda nuts. I personally tend to take each question at face value and answer concisely. I was told by a lawyer once, that I was the perfect witness lol. Now I am just starting to get to the point where I sometimes think "Hey they are just trying to make conversation. Maybe I can throw in some other little anecdote...."
    Yeah, I've noticed that with some INTPs, others are more like me.

    I have been wondering if it's Ne vs Ti dominance (check some of the discussions of various types of INTPs). Ti dominant INTPs seem to be more minimalist and self-preservationalist in nature, not as much information passes easily out the mouth; the Ne based ones seems far more social/gregarious, with ideas pinging off everywhere.

    Or it could just be a sense of danger starting in childhood, where I wanted to make my parents happy and felt like I didn't know to do that, so I sent Ne zipping out in every direction all the time to make sure I didn't take a misstep.

    When I was younger the only way I really got to know people is that I had to be in a group where I could throw weird/witty/funny comments, and if someone liked that then that eventually broke the ice enough that we could get to know each other better.
    Yeah, that was sort of my initial attempts at socializing. I have to tell you, I had a really hard time when someone else was funnier or more dominant than me because I then no longer had a role to play or way to easily relate. But the humor pathway is pretty good, it makes people happy, it helps them look on you with interest, and it is like casting "lures" so that people who find you interesting can follow up.

    Yeah that describes me pretty well. The only part I don't relate to is all the extra analyzing underneath. I guess that is what separates the Ti-doms from the Ti-auxs.
    Yup. It's sort of funny, I feel like with the Ti-doms I have to rein in my thoughts, stay on task more, and focus harder. I mean, all the logic is there all along underneath, it's just I have to shut down Ne to a degree and stay channeled.

    This is probably another difference. If I'm not sure what someone meant then'll I rephrase a question several different ways and use active listening and all that to close any communication gaps. Although with heavy F types all of that activity can sometimes make communication even more muddled. Like they might not understand how I'm trying to clarify things and instead the mutual confusion simply grows.
    Doh. I hate that. That's usually when I end up bailing (politely) if possible so that things do not get worse. All that helps is that I know they're probably frustrated too at not getting me when they know I'm trying.

    Active listening is a pretty good practice, actually. It can start to be restrictive or a cliche in itself if the person never acquires an intuitive feel for conversation, but the principles are pretty valuable.
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  3. #33
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, I've noticed that with some INTPs, others are more like me.

    I have been wondering if it's Ne vs Ti dominance (check some of the discussions of various types of INTPs). Ti dominant INTPs seem to be more minimalist and self-preservationalist in nature, not as much information passes easily out the mouth; the Ne based ones seems far more social/gregarious, with ideas pinging off everywhere.

    Or it could just be a sense of danger starting in childhood, where I wanted to make my parents happy and felt like I didn't know to do that, so I sent Ne zipping out in every direction all the time to make sure I didn't take a misstep.
    I don't have anything against letting thoughts run out of my mouth as soon as I think them, lol. The main thing holding me back is that I have to check how "Ne friendly" my environment is. Many environments (school, corporations, etc...) are not particularly Ne friendly so I usually just shut up and probably act more like an INTP. On the other hand the pastor of my church is an ENFP, so that ends up being an Ne friendly environment. Most communities of "artistic types" are fairly Ne friendly too. In those types of environments I feel like I can be myself without have to clam up or go into chameleon mode.

    Yeah, that was sort of my initial attempts at socializing. I have to tell you, I had a really hard time when someone else was funnier or more dominant than me because I then no longer had a role to play or way to easily relate. But the humor pathway is pretty good, it makes people happy, it helps them look on you with interest, and it is like casting "lures" so that people who find you interesting can follow up.
    Heh whenever I find someone as funny as I am we end playing off each other until everyone else dies laughing, or they go crazy because they can't take it all. That wanting to have a unique "role" might be more of an introvert trait. I don't know.


    Active listening is a pretty good practice, actually. It can start to be restrictive or a cliche in itself if the person never acquires an intuitive feel for conversation, but the principles are pretty valuable.
    I've kinda done active listening my whole life. It was just a few years ago that I realized people actually had a name for it. To me I just like to sum up what they just said in my own words to check if I understand what they are saying.
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  4. #34
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    According to Jungian Lenore Thomson, Ti is actually subjective because it is an individual, perceptual logic vs the universal objectivity of extraverted thinking. In other words, dominant introverted thinkers have a unique way of assessing situations and problems while dominant Te- users adhere to established laws of logic. Not to be nitpicky or anything...
    You are conflating the two definitions of the term 'objective' that are prominent in Jungian typology.

    According to one of the definitions, to be objective means to be unbiased or not influenced by your personal tastes and preferences. Thinking logically is one of the most reliable ways to be objective.

    Another definition of objective that is also prominent in Jungian typology is to be in tune with the object or the external world. The object contrasts with the subject (mind). Hence, an objective person according to this definition is somebody who is in tune with the physical world and externally focused.

    Leonor Thomson, in her type descriptions, especially in her discussion of the ISTP and the ESTP has noted that the content of Ti is unmistakably logical and not less so than that of Te.

    She also did mention that TPs tend to have a unique approach to solving problems or subjective (in terms of the second definition of subjective) to solving problems. Subjective in the sense that Ti is focused on the subject and not the object, more on the mind than the matter.

    Moreover, logic is by its nature subjective according to definition two. It is a psychological phenomenon and not the physical, hence it inheres within the subject and not the object. For this reason, the type that is subjective according to definition 2 is more likely to be in tune with the already established laws of logic than the type that is objective, or more in tune with the physical environment rather than the mind.

    In summary, my point is that Ti types tend to be more in tune with the established laws of logic than the Te types and not less. For this reason, the Ti type is much more common than the Te type in disciplines where a heavy reliance on logic is necessary, such as mathematics, physics or philosophy. The supposition that the Ti type relies less on logic than the Te type because it is in some sense subjective rests on a mere misunderstanding regarding what 'objective' means in this context. In this context, it does not mean anything like arbitrary or illogical as it does in the case of the first definition of objective that I have discussed earlier in this post.

    Exactly what role does this 'unique way' of Ti play in their reasoning process and how does it distinguish the Ti cognitive process from a Te one. Introverted Thinking is the most easily motivated by the inner life rather than the external world. Hence, ideas that appear relevant to the individual or abstract (engaged with the most easily by the mind rather than experience with the external world.) appear the most interesting. This demonstrates the subject focused or subjective 2 attitude of the Introverted Thinking. The Extroverted Thinking type on the other hand tends to be object oriented, or objective 2, hence he or she is more likely to be interested in problems that can be physically observed or are of relevance to the external world/object.
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  5. #35
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    In summary, my point is that Ti types tend to be more in tune with the established laws of logic than the Te types and not less. For this reason, the Ti type is much more common than the Te type in disciplines where a heavy reliance on logic is necessary, such as mathematics, physics or philosophy.
    I take it, by "established laws of logic", you mean "universal", with the emphasis on "laws". Since extraverted judgment deals with agreed upon principles, which is what we often think of by "established". "Laws" might be universal principles, which are "established" by virtue of being universal, not simply by agreement.
    Last edited by Eric B; 09-24-2009 at 11:44 AM.
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    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I take it, by "established laws of logic", you mean "universal", with the emphasis on "laws". Since extraverted judgment deals with agreed upon principles, which is what we often think of by "established". "Laws" might be universal principles, which are "established" by virte of being unioversal, not simply by agreement.
    Extroverted Judgment is concerned with the agreed upon principle not by definition, but by convenience. The nature of extroverted judgment is such that judgment is most easily activated when dealing with the external environment. Hence its nature is to have a tendency to make judgments and so in response to the external environment.

    Judgment deals with principles, because extroverted judgment is focused on the external environment it tends to be concerned with rules and conventions. Some of the principles that Extroverted Judgment deals with are supported by nothing but convention.

    Introverted Judgment, by virtue of being judgment, tends to deal with principles. However, because it is not externally focused, it tends not to be interested in principles that are supported only by the convention.

    The principles could be supported by reason alone. Theorems of logical reasoning are instances of such principles. Introverted Thinking is the function that is the most adept at engaging such principles.
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  7. #37
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Many environments (school, corporations, etc...) are not particularly Ne friendly so I usually just shut up and probably act more like an INTP. On the other hand the pastor of my church is an ENFP, so that ends up being an Ne friendly environment.
    I can actually be myself more at work. Church for me was usually the suckier place to be, everyone was very S. What ended up happening was that I developed a pocket group of "secret N types" who were also having to survive in the hostile environment, we had our own little subversive uNderground.

    Heh whenever I find someone as funny as I am we end playing off each other until everyone else dies laughing, or they go crazy because they can't take it all. That wanting to have a unique "role" might be more of an introvert trait. I don't know.
    No, I do that too. But haven't you ever run across a few people who have a different style of humor, and it's a solitary style? Where they don't allow other people to mesh? It's all about their one-liner delivery, not designed for interaction.

    These guys would tend to dominate conversations like a stand-up comedian, and in the face of that I could do nothing except switch to a different, less-developed hat.

    I've kinda done active listening my whole life. It was just a few years ago that I realized people actually had a name for it. To me I just like to sum up what they just said in my own words to check if I understand what they are saying.
    yeah, it's totally sensible and smart to check everything before proceeding forward esp if the conversation could be volatile. Most people really don't naturally "thinking outside themselves" though, they are just going with their gut perceptions and not even realizing there might be other ways to view things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Extroverted Judgment is concerned with the agreed upon principle not by definition, but by convenience. The nature of extroverted judgment is such that judgment is most easily activated when dealing with the external environment. Hence its nature is to have a tendency to make judgments and so in response to the external environment.

    Judgment deals with principles, because extroverted judgment is focused on the external environment it tends to be concerned with rules and conventions. Some of the principles that Extroverted Judgment deals with are supported by nothing but convention.
    I generally agree. Fe is more convention-oriented ('what works to manage people inside the culture') and Te is more universal ('what works to fix this problem / resolve this issue'), but neither is really dealing with "inherent values" and thus universal principles, they are concerned with "what works -- and has been proven to work -- to produce the desired outcome."

    Sometimes if the world changes and the Je thinking does not, the Je convention no longer works.

    Introverted Thinking is the function that is the most adept at engaging such principles.
    Theoretically correct.
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  9. #39
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I generally agree. Fe is more convention-oriented ('what works to manage people inside the culture') and Te is more universal ('what works to fix this problem / resolve this issue'), but neither is really dealing with "inherent values" and thus universal principles, they are concerned with "what works -- and has been proven to work -- to produce the desired outcome.".
    That is an astute observation as Extroverted functions are by nature experience oriented, hence the principles of extroverted judgment are founded on experience. Therefore what worked in the past will be deemed as an acceptable modus operandi by extroverted judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Sometimes if the world changes and the Je thinking does not, the Je convention no longer works. ."
    That appears to be the reason why many moral enthusiasts to this day cling to ethically obsolete systems of ethics that were provided by conventional religions such as Marxism, Christianity or Judaism. Ethics are merely recommendations with regard to how we can best get by in the world. Amidst the circumstances of the past, those ethical systems may have been adequate, yet they no longer are.







    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Theoretically correct.
    Typology is by nature theoretical, not practical. Being an introverted judger simply means that one has a natural predisposition to look for principles of judgment in reflection more so than experience with the external world. The question of whether or not people with this function are indeed the most competent at recognizing underlying principles of thought and seeing past the mere convention is a matter for psychologists and sociologists to investigate. The case is such because extra-typological factors such as the circumstances and non-typological personality qualities are a prominent part of the inquiry. Typology is chiefly concerned with solidified unconscious dispositions of cognition that tend to guide us due to our intrinsic nature rather than circumstances that are external to us.

    In recapitulation, typology alone cannot answer the question of whether or not the Introverted Judgers are the most adept at recognizing the aforementioned underlying principles.
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  10. #40
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    From others point of view

    Ti equates to - you dont talk much do you?

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