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  1. #61
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Are you saying that he should feel that way? I'm not arguing, just trying to clarify.
    Nah, I'm not saying he should or shouldn't feel any way. I'm the last one who should give advice to anybody.

    I just object to the implication that if someone has feelings that homosexuality is wrong, that they just need to be educated or enlightened and then they won't feel that way. And it's really not just about that one issue, I object to that line of thinking in general. I think it's good to have different perspectives and not all believe the same things.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    So, if I were an NF, I would believe it's a good thing to submerge yourself in homosexuality? Somehow I doubt all NFs believe that.
    Of course not. Every type can defend bad ideas. But they'll probably do so for different reasons. As they will reject bad ideas for different reasons: Ts will reject religion if they find it contradicted by facts and logic. Fs will reject religion when if they find it contradicted by ethics of respect and empathy.

    (BTW, I think the point was that empathising through fictional characters is a very obvious way for NFs to learn new things about the world, not speaking about what opinions NFs hold).


    But Jeffster, just to get the context for your statements right: do you happen to be homophobic yourself (or however you want to euphemise it)?

    Are you sure that your concern about 'self-propagandising' is not actually a concern that your own prejudice might be challenged?
    In the quote above, you seem to have a prejudice that homosexuality is somehow a learned ('propagandised') behaviour?
    If that was the case, you would have a hard time explaining the existence of homosexuality at all, since propaganda has been exclusively and aggressively heterosexual for centuries. And as CC remarked, selfhating, selfdenying homosexuals have believed, supported and spread the propaganda and the only result seems to be pedophile catholics and hypocritical conservatives. And unhappy lives.

    I think religious prejudice and shame is much more likely to be a learned behaviour, resulting from years of exposure to (self-)propaganda and often mixed into your emotions as well as your sense of identity and social worth. This should be a real concern for ethical people. Not artsy movies about people falling in love with somebody socially 'inappropriate'. That genre has always yielded captivating art - just think about Romeo and Juliet.

  3. #63
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    But Jeffster, just to get the context for your statements right: do you happen to be homophobic yourself (or however you want to euphemise it)?
    No.

    Are you sure that your concern about 'self-propagandising' is not actually a concern that your own prejudice might be challenged?
    Yes. I think everything should be challenged.

    In the quote above, you seem to have a prejudice that homosexuality is somehow a learned ('propagandised') behaviour?
    No, you read it wrong. The propaganda aspect was watching movies to somehow "erase" views seemingly because other people don't like those views.
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  4. #64
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    No.
    Glad to hear that.

    Yes. I think everything should be challenged.
    Agreed. But it doesn't mean that everything will turn out to be equally (un-)justified. When challenged and examined, you'll find that ideas of racism are much less justifyable than ideas of equality. Or in the present case, that ideas of homophobia are much less justifyable than ideas of respect for individuals and their lovelife.

    We must indeed challenge ideas: namely to test whether they are worth keeping or not (caveat: i.e. knowing what we know at this point and until a new challenge pops up). So the challenge-process always end in a decision to either keep, reform, ignore or actively fight the idea in question. There is no 'neutral' stand.

    No, you read it wrong. The propaganda aspect was watching movies to somehow "erase" views seemingly because other people don't like those views.
    The suggestion of these movies appeared to be meant as a way to counter the emotional indoctrination of homophobic religious propaganda. The OP has made a conscious evaluation and found the religious hate of sexual autonomy in general and homosexual love in particular both nonsense intellectually and harmful ethically. But he's aware that some early manipulations of his emotional reactions seem to still have some unwanted power over him. So he asks for ways to fight the remnant intrusion of these unjustifyable ideas in his emotional life.

    I think that good literature, art and movies are excellent ways to free your emotional household from whatever bad stuff has been drilled into you during vulnerable childhood. And of course it's also important just being around people of all sorts, so any ideology of 'otherness' loose foothold and real life experience together takes over.

    Any socially thematised group can be ideologically tagged with automatic responses of 'bad emotions' and prejudice. And they will be, again and again. The sexually independant women, the poor and uneducated classes, the fat, the jews, the black, the immigrants, the bohemes etc. etc. It's important to work on countering those culturally pervasive and very harmful gut-reactions by providing more factual insight, more concrete mixing & mingling and more artistic identification across such nonsensical ideological divisions.

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