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  1. #51
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post

    Ever since I was a child, I have held certain moral convictions that were instilled in me from an unnamed outside source. Erm... . Hint Hint.

    Some of these convictions are good, while others I know are bad. However, many of the bad convictions are still there, and I have to let my Ne override them when they are violated. I would elaborate, but I don't want to offend anyone.

    So, how might one go about erasing beliefs from Fi?

    Another question: Has anyone else who is a dominant Fi user had to face contradictory convictions? I have had this happen to me, and it felt like my brain was being ripped apart.
    I can relate a little, but I am a secondary Fi user.


    My wife is an INFP, and she reports exactly the same experiences you are describing.


    As far as erasing beliefs from Fi---

    I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that, but if you'll allow me to take a guess, I'll put it this way:

    You want to "separate the wheat from the chaff", so to speak---to decide which beliefs you want to keep and which ones you want to reject, right?

    I've seen the effect that absorbing religious doctrine has had on my wife, and though some of it's good, some of it really ain't too pretty.

    She hangs onto some beliefs that she isn't comfortable with, just in case they're right, but it constantly plagues her, and she feels an excessive amount of guilt.

    It's probably scary to let some of it go, because it has been programmed, to some extent, into you by both fear-mongering and subtle suggestion.

    I think the key is to decide which beliefs you really agree with, and which ones you're holding onto "just in case."

    That may sound overly simple, but I empathize with you, and I don't mean to imply that it's easy.

    But in the end, it does you no good to hang onto those "just in case"-type of beliefs.

    First, determine which ones are your core beliefs, then slowly, at your own pace, take a close look at the other ones.

    It may help to make lists, and to take some time to study multiple views on the particular beliefs that plague you.

    I hope this helps, and I'll ask my wife if she has anything to suggest.

    I feel for you, my Brotha.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    On another note, it has been said that INTPs are excellent at seeing factual inconsistencies. By the same logic, does that mean that INFPs are excellent at seeing moral inconsistencies? If so, what functions are at work?

    I, myself, can see hypocrisy a mile away. It shines brightly unto me like a shining star.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    I can relate a little, but I am a secondary Fi user.


    My wife is an INFP, and she reports exactly the same experiences you are describing.


    As far as erasing beliefs from Fi---

    I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that, but if you'll allow me to take a guess, I'll put it this way:

    You want to "separate the wheat from the chaff", so to speak---to decide which beliefs you want to keep and which ones you want to reject, right?

    I've seen the effect that absorbing religious doctrine has had on my wife, and though some of it's good, some of it really ain't too pretty.

    She hangs onto some beliefs that she isn't comfortable with, just in case they're right, but it constantly plagues her, and she feels an excessive amount of guilt.

    It's probably scary to let some of it go, because it has been programmed, to some extent, into you by both fear-mongering and subtle suggestion.

    I think the key is to decide which beliefs you really agree with, and which ones you're holding onto "just in case."

    That may sound overly simple, but I empathize with you, and I don't mean to imply that it's easy.

    But in the end, it does you no good to hang onto those "just in case"-type of beliefs.

    First, determine which ones are your core beliefs, then slowly, at your own pace, take a close look at the other ones.

    It may help to make lists, and to take some time to study multiple views on the particular beliefs that plague you.

    I hope this helps, and I'll ask my wife if she has anything to suggest.

    I feel for you, my Brotha.
    Thank you Wonka. You understand completely.

    I see what you are implying with the "just in case" beliefs, but there is no "just in case" for me at this point. I have separated myself from all religious doctrine, therefore these feelings must be a horrible side-effect.

    I must say that I was experiencing heavy apprehension toward making this thread, because I didn't want to offend anyone.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Beautiful Thing (gay teens)

    Maurice (historical pic, early 1900's, based upon a true story)

    All Over Me (lesbian)

    Gia (lesbian, true story)

    High Art (lesbian)

    Big Eden (gay love in a small town)

    My Beautiful Laundrette (gay issues amongst other subplots)

    The Birdcage (maybe a bit cliche, but such a good comedy)

    Tipping the Velvet (the novel is even better than the film, Victorian lesbian drama)

    Transamerica (deals more with transgender issues)

    Henry and June (bisexuality, based upon a true story)

    But I'm a Cheerleader (independent dark comedy about a Christian camp intended to convert gay teens)
    Thank you marmalade.

  4. #54
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Hmmm...deductive reasoning deals with propositions. But say person A tells his congregation that watching pornography is bad. Then a few weeks later, one of the members of the congregation sees person A buying pornography at an adult video store. In this example the inconsistency is not between two propositions, but between words and deeds. This type of "inconsistency" does not fall under the purview of deductive logic.

    I think the trouble here is with the word "inconsistency" itself. If we take it to mean something strictly technical, then no, as SW said, it would not be correct to describe the mismatch between a person's stated ethics and their actions as "inconsistent." But I think that most people in this thread who have used the word meant it in a much looser sense. Eric B gave a good alternative word when he mentioned "incongruity." Detecting incongruity between a person's words and deeds is not a logical activity.
    One can construct a moral framework where an individual's assertion that something is good requires him to do what he claimed has been good. In other words, when he says that X is good, he is really making two propositions; X is good and I therefore have to do X.

    If he only claims that X is good and fails to do X, then in effect he disavows the claim about X.

    In a context such as this, deductive reasoning can be used to spot inconsistencies in this respect. However, in a typical moral discourse where the words are defined in a completely conventional manner, no inconsistency occurs when one claims that something is good yet fails to do what he has claimed to be good.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    One can construct a moral framework where an individual's assertion that something is good requires him to do what he claimed has been good. In other words, when he says that X is good, he is really making two propositions; X is good and I therefore have to do X.

    If he only claims that X is good and fails to do X, then in effect he disavows the claim about X.

    In a context such as this, deductive reasoning can be used to spot inconsistencies in this respect. However, in a typical moral discourse where the words are defined in a completely conventional manner, no inconsistency occurs when one claims that something is good yet fails to do what he has claimed to be good.
    You have a point, but your missing an extroverted component as well. This component is present when I project my image upon others and expect them to act as if I would. I am not sure if this is purely due to Introverted Feeling. Possibly a combination of Fi and Ne.

    So, in this respect, I often find myself feeling as if society should have the same moral outlook as I do. Therefore, I can often feel hypocrisy when people don't act in accordance. This behavior is present in many INFPs, including the ones in our avatars. EDIT: Nevermind, I thought that your avatar was a portrait of William Shakespeare.

    EDIT: Hypocrisy was a poor word in this context. I implied a concept along the lines of "moral inconsistency".

  6. #56
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I think the trouble here is with the word "inconsistency" itself. If we take it to mean something strictly technical, then no, as SW said, it would not be correct to describe the mismatch between a person's stated ethics and their actions as "inconsistent.
    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    However, in a typical moral discourse where the words are defined in a completely conventional manner, no inconsistency occurs when one claims that something is good yet fails to do what he has claimed to be good.
    We are saying the same thing. It's a matter of word choice. If we call these typically "hypocritical" acts "inconsistent," then we imply that they are in some way illogical. As you pointed out, unless we have some sort of moral-logical framework, there is no way such acts can be considered illogical.

    Yet on some level, perhaps on a practical, day-to-day level, we have a sense that there is something out of place when someone says one thing and then does another. We could call this "incongruity" as Eric B suggested. That way there is no suggestion of irrationality when we say that person A acted incongruously to his professed morals.
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  7. #57
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    That's because you aren't an NF.
    So, if I were an NF, I would believe it's a good thing to submerge yourself in homosexuality? Somehow I doubt all NFs believe that.

    People learn through literature and film. They learn about their own humanity and the humanity of others through quality film and real literature. True literature and powerful film engage us on an intellectual and emotional level which can open our eyes to other ways of being - whether that be the experience of someone in a different country, of a different religion, of a different sexual preference, etc.
    Obviously you misunderstood my objection. It's not ridiculous because I don't believe this can occur, it's ridiculous to suggest that it is necessary to do this in order to "understand" homosexual people. I'm obviously not opposed to learning, but I don't like the idea of a sort of a self-propagandizing session. My "Fi" has beliefs against THAT!

    I'm not suggesting that Mystic Tater watch some cheap, box office film that stereotypes gays, not at all. I'm suggesting he watches films that centralize around homosexual characters, hopefully with homosexual writers and/or directors, so that he can relate to homosexuals on the level of being human who feel and experience things just like he does.
    Is that really in doubt, though? Did/does Mystic Tater truly consider people with homosexual desires to be alien beings of some sort? Otherwise, that's pretty silly. Objection to homosexual behavior is not limited to those who think of people who engage in it as some sort of different creature that "feels and experiences things" in some different way.

    Of course he should also be around REAL homosexuals too, but films are a place to start.
    Why? Why should he do this? Is there some sort of quest to somehow make yourself a "complete" person by being around people of all lifestyles that are foreign to him? While he's at it, should he spend time with a primitive tribal people that believes homosexuals are possessed by demons and are hanged for it? If not, then it is only people that fit your personal idea of what is acceptable that he should try to "be around" for some sort of "intellectual" education?
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    So, if I were an NF, I would believe it's a good thing to submerge yourself in homosexuality? Somehow I doubt all NFs believe that.



    Obviously you misunderstood my objection. It's not ridiculous because I don't believe this can occur, it's ridiculous to suggest that it is necessary to do this in order to "understand" homosexual people. I'm obviously not opposed to learning, but I don't like the idea of a sort of a self-propagandizing session. My "Fi" has beliefs against THAT!
    self-propagandizing? dude, I'm not gay. I'm a woman who likes men. I was trying to help Mystic Tator.



    Is that really in doubt, though? Did/does Mystic Tater truly consider people with homosexual desires to be alien beings of some sort? Otherwise, that's pretty silly. Objection to homosexual behavior is not limited to those who think of people who engage in it as some sort of different creature that "feels and experiences things" in some different way.



    Why? Why should he do this? Is there some sort of quest to somehow make yourself a "complete" person by being around people of all lifestyles that are foreign to him? While he's at it, should he spend time with a primitive tribal people that believes homosexuals are possessed by demons and are hanged for it? If not, then it is only people that fit your personal idea of what is acceptable that he should try to "be around" for some sort of "intellectual" education?
    He should do it BECAUSE HE WANTS TO. I didn't walk up to this thread and say, "hey you should submerge yourself in gay film or literature to become more open-minded." HE WANTS TO. The thread is specifically about him wanting to overcome his emotional aversion to homosexuals, and I was just trying to be helpful.

    He wants to educate himself. I was just making suggestions. I really don't know what you're going on about. I didn't walk up to some random person and suggest that they watch gay films.

    My personal idea of what's acceptable has nothing to do with it.

  9. #59
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    This is one of those times I really believe that stuff about different types speaking different languages.

    marmalade, I didn't call you "gay" or say that you came up with the ideas you suggested out of nowhere. I objected to the concept, no matter who was expressing it, and you happened to be the one that replied to me about it. Obviously your personal idea of what's acceptable does have something to do with it. I doubt if Mystic had said he wanted to become a Nazi, you would have come up with film suggestions for good white supremacist messages. Although, I dunno, maybe you would have.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    This is one of those times I really believe that stuff about different types speaking different languages.

    marmalade, I didn't call you "gay" or say that you came up with the ideas you suggested out of nowhere. I objected to the concept, no matter who was expressing it, and you happened to be the one that replied to me about it. Obviously your personal idea of what's acceptable does have something to do with it. I doubt if Mystic had said he wanted to become a Nazi, you would have come up with film suggestions for good white supremacist messages. Although, I dunno, maybe you would have.
    I understand what you're saying now, and I admit that the Nazi white supremacist film suggestions made me laugh though in reality that would be horrible.

    Yes, if I thought that Mystic Tator was right to feel that homosexuality is unacceptable, I surely wouldn't be making film suggestions, you're right about that.

    Are you saying that he should feel that way? I'm not arguing, just trying to clarify.

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