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  1. #41
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    Since you already formed a close friendship with your lesbian teacher, I would recommend that you at least watch some films with homosexual characters, and use your Fi to relate to the characters (I read that horror movies bother you in a another thread...so I was thinking that watching films impacts you emotionally, naturally) and then maybe your Fi will build more "gut level" empathy toward homosexuals if you relate to them - even through the context of watching films or reading novels - so that you can stop perceiving them as the "other."

    I also agree with Jennifer saying that this sounds more like Fe than Fi...

  2. #42
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Read my first post. It mentioned how I have had conflicting values in the past, and still do.

    I think you're putting words in my mouth.
    I did read the first post. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm asking questions to try to understand, because I'm not following what led you to want to "erase" your beliefs. Is it because a lot of people don't agree with them? Or because you have truly come to new or different conclusions about them? Because if the latter were true, it would seem as if the "erasing" would have already been done. That's the part that is confusing to me.

    By the way, I find the suggestions about "watching movies with homosexual characters to try to relate to them" to be really silly and ridiculous. Or the statements that homosexuality is something akin to being blonde or brunette. That's a really astounding oversimplification.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I did read the first post. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm asking questions to try to understand, because I'm not following what led you to want to "erase" your beliefs. Is it because a lot of people don't agree with them? Or because you have truly come to new or different conclusions about them? Because if the latter were true, it would seem as if the "erasing" would have already been done. That's the part that is confusing to me.
    Well, I think my gut reaction stemmed from a belief that is no longer there. However, I want to get rid of it because my current beliefs over-rule my previous beliefs. I hope that makes sense.

    By the way, I find the suggestions about "watching movies with homosexual characters to try to relate to them" to be really silly and ridiculous. Or the statements that homosexuality is something akin to being blonde or brunette. That's a really astounding oversimplification.
    Yeah, an error in tact, I admit.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Since you already formed a close friendship with your lesbian teacher, I would recommend that you at least watch some films with homosexual characters, and use your Fi to relate to the characters (I read that horror movies bother you in a another thread...so I was thinking that watching films impacts you emotionally, naturally) and then maybe your Fi will build more "gut level" empathy toward homosexuals if you relate to them - even through the context of watching films or reading novels - so that you can stop perceiving them as the "other."

    I also agree with Jennifer saying that this sounds more like Fe than Fi...
    This is what I was thinking. Did you have any specific suggestions? I still haven't seen Brokeback Mountain...

  5. #45
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    I don't know exaclt what you mean, but from what it appears to be, its not relevant to anything that I said. Deductive reasoning is the most effective way to notice inconsistency in patterns. That is the most closely associated with the Thinking type than any other. The INTP by definition relies heavily on Thinking, the INFP does not. Hence, the INTP is more likely to have the Thinking skill than the INFP. Because of the skill in question, here or she will notice inconsistency in patterns.

    This of course is not to say that the INFP cannot be good at Thinking and therefore notice inconsistencies in patterns. Temperament is not personality. A temperament is a mere solidified unconscious disposition. If one is a dominant Thinking type, it is simply quite natural for him to use Thinking (and therefore develop the skills associated with this function). If one is a Feeling type on the other hand, Thinking is the most supressed function, hence it is much less natural for such a person to use that function. Therefore the Feeling type is much less likely to have the Thinking skills that are necessary to notice inconsistency.

    Surely, however, with great discipline he may learn to use this function adequately and thereby cultivate the relevant skills to notice inconsistencies in patterns.
    What I was talking about was that Mystic asked about moral inconsistencies such as hypocrisy. In Linda Berens' and the Hartzlers' books at least, this is known as "evaluating congruence". (like whether one's actions line up with beliefs).
    Though it's true that the line becomes fuzzy when trying to determine whether the standard being judged by is really logic or ethics, and they can both mimic each other, apparently.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    I don't know exaclt what you mean, but from what it appears to be, its not relevant to anything that I said. Deductive reasoning is the most effective way to notice inconsistency in patterns. That is the most closely associated with the Thinking type than any other. The INTP by definition relies heavily on Thinking, the INFP does not. Hence, the INTP is more likely to have the Thinking skill than the INFP. Because of the skill in question, here or she will notice inconsistency in patterns.
    Are we even talking efficiency here?
    Or what is better?

    I'm not sure I even agree with you about what is "most effective."

    Sometimes linear logical deduction is most effective.
    Other times you can just look at something and know it's "off."

    With the former, you get more detail on why it might be off, but there's a chance you'll miss the forest for the trees. For the latter, you'll sense something is off (because of incongruence) long before Little Mr. Logical Deductor will slowly work his way to the source of the problem.

    And... if you can meld the two together... now there you have a great inconsistency sniffer.

    INTPs are great at noting inconsistencies in argument and context as very specific points of logic ("that did not make sense"). INFPs get pretty good vibes off people ('they're not being sincere, they are being duplicitous in some way") because there are inconsistencies in the pattern of that person's projected personality.

    As Eric suggests, this is partly the "moral consistency" thing. Once Ti understands a pattern, it can sync up to it, but the impersonality of Ti seems to deaden it without training to immediately jumping into another moral framework, whereas Fi seems bent on moral frameworks as the point of contact between individuals (rather than the informative impersonal analysis).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Read my first post. It mentioned how I have had conflicting values in the past, and still do. I think you're putting words in my mouth.
    I don't know if this helps, and it doesn't describe you per se, but I once heard of a lady who ministered to homosexuals out of her religious conviction. All of her life, she had had a visceral repulsion to gay people -- thoughts of the homosexual act literally left her feeling ill - but she chose out of moral conviction to minister to them as people. I don't know if her physical response diminished over time. And it happens; sometimes we have literal physical and/or gut-level responses to certain thoughts or behaviors, even if our conscious moral choices are far different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    This is what I was thinking. Did you have any specific suggestions? I still haven't seen Brokeback Mountain...
    heh. Brokeback was a good movie but I don't think it really presented much of a "model relationship" per se, it was meant to highlight the social stresses of being gay in a repressive culture and imposed masculinity and was about as dysfunctional in some ways as they come. There was the lesbian relationship in "The Hours" (the Meryl Streep couple) that was actually pretty mature.
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  7. #47
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Other times you can just look at something and know it's "off." .
    I do not know reliable this 'looking at something and knowing its off method' is. Such an activity is merely tantamount to trusting an instinct. Can you be sure that your instinct will not steer you wrong? Your ancestors spent thousands of years avoiding things and people who may harm them, however, our circumstances are different from that of our ancestors. Having the physiological constitution that they have passed down to us may be inadequate for the circumstances that surround us.

    This of course does not show that trusting an instinct is always inadequate. It is possible for one to teach him or herself a certain skill and after continuous practice that person will be able to use the skills in question without thinking about them. He simply will have an instinct to behave in a certain way and because of his great mastery of the skill, he should be unlikely to make mistakes.

    Perhaps if you are very experienced dealing with people and know very well what benign persons are like and how they differ from the wicked, you should have an instinct that informs you of the level of virtue of the person that you are dealing with. However, in this case, we do not know exactly what method we are using to differentiate a benign individual from a malevolent one. It may be based on a very reliable and a rigorous method, however, that seems doubtful to me. No science or a precise calculus has been developed to assess the motives and character of people. Psychology and Sociology are not nearly as advanced as Physics and Chemistry are. Even if they were, people who trust their instincts are rarely informed by psychology and sociology and today we learn more about human personality from novels than from sciences.

    In short, my point is that its simply naive to assume that what is called 'our intuitions about people' allow us to spot inconsistencies in human behavior just as successfully as logical analysis would. Surely the intuitive method is quicker than that of deductive reasoning, but not nearly as reliable. For this reason, I am not prepared to concede that the intuitive method is more efficient with respect to understanding people than that of logical reasoning. Efficiency has two components; attaining accurate results and doing so quickly. The intuitive method does not satisfy the former item of the criteria.



    Trivial note: A person who notices flaws in character by virtue of the intuitive method is not noticing an inconsistency, he or she is merely entertaining an intuition that something may be wrong with the person that they are dealing with. Even if you do prove that the intuitive method is more reliable, you have not refuted my thesis that only Thinking spots inconsistencies.

    Your views on the matter were interesting, yet irrelevant to the discussion that I have started with Eric.

    The question that I have for you is, if one is not using deductive reasoning to notice inconsistencies, what method is he or she using to do so? At this point, I cannot imagine how one can observe inconsistencies by reasoning intuitively and not logically. (An intuition is merely a feeling that something is either good or bad, as far as I know.) Perhaps you should explain that more clearly. Maybe we do not have the same definition of intuition.
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  8. #48
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    Hmmm...deductive reasoning deals with propositions. But say person A tells his congregation that watching pornography is bad. Then a few weeks later, one of the members of the congregation sees person A buying pornography at an adult video store. In this example the inconsistency is not between two propositions, but between words and deeds. This type of "inconsistency" does not fall under the purview of deductive logic.

    I think the trouble here is with the word "inconsistency" itself. If we take it to mean something strictly technical, then no, as SW said, it would not be correct to describe the mismatch between a person's stated ethics and their actions as "inconsistent." But I think that most people in this thread who have used the word meant it in a much looser sense. Eric B gave a good alternative word when he mentioned "incongruity." Detecting incongruity between a person's words and deeds is not a logical activity.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    By the way, I find the suggestions about "watching movies with homosexual characters to try to relate to them" to be really silly and ridiculous.
    That's because you aren't an NF.

    People learn through literature and film. They learn about their own humanity and the humanity of others through quality film and real literature. True literature and powerful film engage us on an intellectual and emotional level which can open our eyes to other ways of being - whether that be the experience of someone in a different country, of a different religion, of a different sexual preference, etc.

    Novels, in particular, can make a profound impact upon people because they can relate to the main characters or narrator on such an intensely personal level. Some people also have this experience with film ... including my ISFP ex boyfriend, who may be more borderline N than you are, perhaps?....and they have profound ephiphanies through art. Art touches people. I'm not suggesting that Mystic Tater watch some cheap, box office film that stereotypes gays, not at all. I'm suggesting he watches films that centralize around homosexual characters, hopefully with homosexual writers and/or directors, so that he can relate to homosexuals on the level of being human who feel and experience things just like he does.

    Mystic Tator feels pain when he watches horror movies. This made me think that quality film would be a good medium for him to have an emotionally profound experience in relation to art (a "safe space") to help recover his beliefs. Of course he should also be around REAL homosexuals too, but films are a place to start.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    This is what I was thinking. Did you have any specific suggestions? I still haven't seen Brokeback Mountain...
    Beautiful Thing (gay teens)

    Maurice (historical pic, early 1900's, based upon a true story)

    All Over Me (lesbian)

    Gia (lesbian, true story)

    High Art (lesbian)

    Big Eden (gay love in a small town)

    My Beautiful Laundrette (gay issues amongst other subplots)

    The Birdcage (maybe a bit cliche, but such a good comedy)

    Tipping the Velvet (the novel is even better than the film, Victorian lesbian drama)

    Transamerica (deals more with transgender issues)

    Henry and June (bisexuality, based upon a true story)

    But I'm a Cheerleader (independent dark comedy about a Christian camp intended to convert gay teens)

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