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  1. #31
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Hmmm...I still think this kind of thinking is at the heart of homophobia. It's just the reversed version. Instead of "othering" homosexuals in order to stigmatize and cast aspersions on them, you (not you personally, but a general you) "other" them in order to hopefully glean something from being around them. It's an essentialization of homosexuals.

    I think CC gave some good advice when she said that you need to look at individuals in terms of their whole selves, and not in terms of some artificial marker like "homosexual." The point is that the only reason you even have the vocabulary to identify people as "gay" is because such vocabulary has been imposed on you from the society in which you live. If homosexuality were not such a prominent issue, we might not even notice enough to have the word "gay" in our lexicon. It might not have occurred to us to categorize people in such a way.

    So do you see what I'm saying? Recognizing that the vocabulary is not natural should remove the entire categorization scheme. To continue "looking up gays on YouTube" is to perpetuate the vocabulary and continue to naturalize the categorization of humans into "gay" and "straight."

    Anyway, that's just my opinion on the matter (informed by years of indoctrination into the opinions of the liberal arts branch of the academy), so take it with a grain of salt. It's just my justification for doubting the efficacy of your YouTube method in removing traces of "homophobia" from your Fi.
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  2. #32
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    On another note, it has been said that INTPs are excellent at seeing factual inconsistencies. By the same logic, does that mean that INFPs are excellent at seeing moral inconsistencies? If so, what functions are at work?

    I, myself, can see hypocrisy a mile away. It shines brightly unto me like a shining star.

    Noticing inconsistency is a property of Thinking, not Introverted Judgment. The answer is no on that account.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #33
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    The problem is that I still feel a small gut sensation when I meet a homosexual. This feeling can only be described as an Fi phenomena.

    However, my feelings are much better than they once were. There was a point earlier in my life in which I was afraid to be anywhere near them.
    I am really adverse to assigning stuff like this to a particular function.

    I just consider it a "gut response," not necessarily internal judgment. And it doesn't even much matter what function can be blamed for your reaction to homosexuals, it's merely something you have to acknowledge and then work through if you decide that your distaste is wrong.

    I agree with Orangey's analysis about how "Otherizing homosexuals" even for good purposes is still creating a distinction that separates gays from other people. However, I see change as a process, and while the end result is simply to not even notice the gay distinction, the fact is that you are susceptible to it, and it's reasonable to take small steps that might still entail this form of otherization -- aka the "positive reason" form -- until you change enough and the distinction finally fails to matter to you, if it registers at all.

    Unfortunately, base-level reactions of repulsion or attraction are really hard to change, without repression or some other inadequate form of psychological smothering; they usually change within a gradual process of reindoctrination of self or further self-education and exposure. Hence you might have to accommodate Otherization as a method until you get past your need for it.

    I think another method to deal with it is just to not look at the sexuality of a person but focus on other aspects of their personhood as soon as you find yourself starting to mull over their sexuality. Seeing things in other people you value regularly, regardless of sexual orientation, trains you to not even make the orientation a criteria... although it takes time to get past the gut repulsion you might experience without meaning to.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Hmmm...I still think this kind of thinking is at the heart of homophobia. It's just the reversed version. Instead of "othering" homosexuals in order to stigmatize and cast aspersions on them, you (not you personally, but a general you) "other" them in order to hopefully glean something from being around them. It's an essentialization of homosexuals.

    I think CC gave some good advice when she said that you need to look at individuals in terms of their whole selves, and not in terms of some artificial marker like "homosexual." The point is that the only reason you even have the vocabulary to identify people as "gay" is because such vocabulary has been imposed on you from the society in which you live. If homosexuality were not such a prominent issue, we might not even notice enough to have the word "gay" in our lexicon. It might not have occurred to us to categorize people in such a way.

    So do you see what I'm saying? Recognizing that the vocabulary is not natural should remove the entire categorization scheme. To continue "looking up gays on YouTube" is to perpetuate the vocabulary and continue to naturalize the categorization of humans into "gay" and "straight."

    Anyway, that's just my opinion on the matter (informed by years of indoctrination into the opinions of the liberal arts branch of the academy), so take it with a grain of salt. It's just my justification for doubting the efficacy of your YouTube method in removing traces of "homophobia" from your Fi.
    I understand this. In fact, for most people, I gain as much knowledge of them as I can to assess their character. Furthermore, I wasn't entirely serious when I made that "Youtube" comment.

    I made that comment because this thread was getting embarrassing for me, thus I attempted to escape it by finding some sort of action to take. However, I still don't fully know what to do. Boy, I'm awfully honest with myself, aren't I?

    You are entirely correct when you say that I, and many others "otherize" them. In fact, this is a social stigma that is reinforced by the media, religion, and other subcultures. Ironically, I don't think that is right. (Probably my Fi)

    In addition, I am trying not project my moral responsibilities as a humane being onto an abstract object like "Fi". My intended context was to relate to other Fi users, and learn more about it in the process.

    EDIT: This "gut feeling" that I speak of does not inhibit me from speaking to and/or being kind to homosexuals. In fact, my art teacher last year was a lesbian, and she and I developed quite a close relationship. I learned a great deal from her. I just don't want to feel the "gut feeling" anymore because I know it is wrong.

  5. #35
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Noticing inconsistency is a property of Thinking, not Introverted Judgment. The answer is no on that account.
    The "moral inconsistencies" associated with Fi are usually referred to in terms of "congruence".
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  6. #36
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The "moral inconsistencies" associated with Fi are usually referred to in terms of "congruence".
    I don't know exaclt what you mean, but from what it appears to be, its not relevant to anything that I said. Deductive reasoning is the most effective way to notice inconsistency in patterns. That is the most closely associated with the Thinking type than any other. The INTP by definition relies heavily on Thinking, the INFP does not. Hence, the INTP is more likely to have the Thinking skill than the INFP. Because of the skill in question, here or she will notice inconsistency in patterns.

    This of course is not to say that the INFP cannot be good at Thinking and therefore notice inconsistencies in patterns. Temperament is not personality. A temperament is a mere solidified unconscious disposition. If one is a dominant Thinking type, it is simply quite natural for him to use Thinking (and therefore develop the skills associated with this function). If one is a Feeling type on the other hand, Thinking is the most supressed function, hence it is much less natural for such a person to use that function. Therefore the Feeling type is much less likely to have the Thinking skills that are necessary to notice inconsistency.

    Surely, however, with great discipline he may learn to use this function adequately and thereby cultivate the relevant skills to notice inconsistencies in patterns.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #37
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    EDIT: This "gut feeling" that I speak of does not inhibit me from speaking to and/or being kind to homosexuals. In fact, my art teacher last year was a lesbian, and she and I developed quite a close relationship. I learned a great deal from her. I just don't want to feel the "gut feeling" anymore because I know it is wrong.
    So, why do you now feel that your gut feeling is wrong?
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    So, why do you now feel that your gut feeling is wrong?
    Because I think people should be treated equally, regardless of sexual preference.

  9. #39
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Because I think people should be treated equally, regardless of sexual preference.
    So your gut feeling was that people should be treated unequally?
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  10. #40
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    So your gut feeling was that people should be treated unequally?
    Read my first post. It mentioned how I have had conflicting values in the past, and still do.

    I think you're putting words in my mouth.

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