User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 17

  1. #1
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    3w4?
    Posts
    1,238

    Default J / P dichotomies

    As a section of my ongoing project of Alignment MBTI hybridization, I'm looking for dichotomies to use as axis of interpretation between the various MBTI functions.

    The basic concept, is that I'd like to break each function into a two axis, three point referance grid, with explainations of interaction between such.

    In the original example that triggered this to begin with, the axis chosen (similar to X and Y axis on a grid) were those of "Good/evil" and "order/chaos" in the terms used by the original alignment grid in D&D.

    Now, this's a flawed system for various reasons, and mislabeled at the very least.

    For example, their definition of "good/evil" is not good NOR evil at all, but serves only as a description of how strongly related to internalization or externalization one's beliefs serve. In that particular case, "externalization" is translated into "good".

    An example of this would be someone who has a religion, or law, or other moral stance or belief, enforcing such externally upon others; they would fight whot they understand to be injustice, or exemplify and praise behaviours they view to be in line with their own beliefs. This isn't GOOD at all, as someone who believed in say... respecting one's elders decisions, in the case of... we'll use arranged marriages, would consider that encouraging such is "good". This would be evil from many of our own viewpoints today in western culture, but it would technically be considered "good" in areas where this is the law, and it would be considered "good" by the individual upholding such.

    The term "evil" is used as an internalization, specifically directed upon ones own self, as in "how does this benefit *ME* specifically". They would be less caring about the moral end of things in relation to how they affect others, but far more interested in how things relate to themselves. They really wouldn't care about an arranged marriage at all, unless they were the one being married, since then it directly affects them.

    The same is true of the basic concepts of 'order' and 'chaos', though these partially coincide with the basic premise of J and P.

    For example, J can be described "in general" as "orderly", at least in the manner of being likely to have judgement based on values, beliefs, and more prone to acceptance of previously entrenched concepts like law, taboo, beliefs, and so on. A strong J would be likely, though not neccesarily, apt to have very strong views on the concept of 'good and evil'.

    The P variant, is that of "chaos", but it's not really CHAOS as such at all... it's described more as just being against abstract and illogical idealizations and rules. A J would be likely to "uphold the law" under the assumption that the breaking of the law would pose precidents unwanted, whereas the P would find that a meaningless law which is harmful rather than good, should be completely ignored. If it serves no valid purpose, it should be discarded. Perception focuses upon viewing things from the 'viewpoint', as multiple viewpoints are available, seeing things from another's perspective can provide insight into the validity of the rule imposed. As such, P is not "true" chaos, but rather, challanges the role of rules per the context they exist within.




    Now, this is obviously not the BEST way to describe the J/P dichotomy, but it is *A* way to describe it.

    Whot I'm looking for in this post, however, is further methods of comparison.

    In which ways do J and P differ, whot are the key aspects which makes one a J and one a P. Which traits truly emphasize one particular method of behaviour over another.

    As J and P are more or less shorthand for explaining which cognitive functions take precidence in importance, s/n and f/t, this may also be a related position of dichotomy to explore.

    I'm not really sure where to start myself, and some which have studied this more than I may have better insight into the matter.

    As such, I request that those who have a strong understanding of the workings of MBTI and the cognitive functions, to attempt to describe several areas in which J and P differ, and primarily, to attempt to specify a straight line of reasoning, for exmaple, to list a line along "order/chaos" in which there would be two extremes defined by excessive J or excessive P.

    Please try to explain why yeu believe such a dichotomy exists, and think of this in terms of EXTREME cases. I'm looking for obvious black and white discrepencies along the lines of "100% P will be heavily disposed to think in this manner" and "100% J will be heavily preferanced to think in this other manner". Work under the assumption that this will not be a closely related middleground, and that we're looking for specific cases of excessive behaviour or thought process, not just "well some are like this but not all", the "but not all" will cover those with a more mediated balance between J and P, but we're looking for the poles, not the median.

    Thanks in advance ^.^

  2. #2
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Kat

    Do you mean stuff like

    Planed V's spontaneous

    Or is that too obvious

  3. #3
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    3w4?
    Posts
    1,238

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Kat

    Do you mean stuff like

    Planed V's spontaneous

    Or is that too obvious
    Yes actually, that kind of thing. The obviousness of it doesn't really matter, just the accuracy.

    Is a full blown heavy J *REALLY* emphasizing on planning, and a heavy emphasized P *REALLY* very spontaneous? If so, it would be a great way to describe such.

    The issue is primarily, does that apply in all situations? Is a ENTJ vs ENTP as likely to maintain this as an ESFJ to an ESFP, etc.

    If it is accurate in every scenario, then yes, it works great.

    If the other factors are having significant difference (due to cognitive functions in the background) then this may not be accurate enough to work.

    If the ISFP is LESS likely to be spontaneous than the ENTJ, then other factors are obviously affecting this more than the J/P dichotomy, and it isn't a great way to describe such.

  4. #4
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Ok I will try... but I wont be able to decompress it, more likely to be tomorrow - I have a questionnaire and I have data on (real data that is).... and see if I can help you some more)...

    One of the questions was

    Itinary when on holiday v's like to chill out and see where the wind blows me

    Wil see if I can find it (but it's the whole of MBTI)

  5. #5
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    a. I prefer to talk problems through with people b. I prefer to think about problems before I talk to people
    c. When I queue I chat to others
    d. When I queue I keep to myself

    e. I really enjoy meeting new people f. I like to chat to people I already know
    g. I知 more outgoing h. I知 more private
    I. I like to talk J. I like to listen


    k. I trust experience l. I trust inspiration
    m. I知 more interested in what is available now N I知 more interested in what could possibly be available in the future
    o. I prefer deal with facts p. I prefer to deal with ideas
    q. I value concrete facts r. I value imagination
    s. I prefer TV that is more about action and adventure t. I prefer TV that is more about heroism and fantasy

    u. When I deal with people I知 more firm than gentle v. When I deal with people I知 more gentle than firm
    w. I look for flaws in logic x. I look for common ground among people
    y. In an argument I stick to my guns z. In an argument I try to find common ground
    aa. I prefer to be known as logical ab. I prefer to be known as sentimental
    ac. I知 more cool headed ad. I知 more warm hearted

    Ae. I prefer things neat and tidy af. I tolerate mess pretty well
    Ag. I prefer it more when I have things planned ah. I prefer it more when I go with the flow
    Ai. I prefer things to be reliable aj. I prefer things to be spontaneous
    Ak. I知 more careful al. I知 more compulsive
    Am. I like to make solid arrangements an. I like to have open ended arrangements

    They are clustered into 5 scales per letter.....

    I'll look to see how good they were at outcomes tomorrow for you

  6. #6
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    3w4?
    Posts
    1,238

    Default

    Oh useful, a full list of such to go through, I'll work on digging through them immediately to see which ones seem most valid ^.^

  7. #7
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    some were definately better than others but that will need me to look through the answers.... which takes a bit of time

    off to the pub with book club now/in a short while

  8. #8
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    8,193

    Default

    The problem is, "accurate in every scenario" doesn't really work in typology and these kinds of systems, because they measure preferences for each dichotomy. It's a range of preferences, not really alwayses and nevers. ENTJs may prefer planning, but they won't always actually plan everything.

    However, the names still work. I liked Keirsey's Order vs. Organization [J/P] difference, at least in describing NTs apart, however that's a bit ambiguous and can be easily confused.



  9. #9
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,487

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    The problem is, "accurate in every scenario" doesn't really work in typology and these kinds of systems, because they measure preferences for each dichotomy. It's a range of preferences, not really alwayses and nevers. ENTJs may prefer planning, but they won't always actually plan everything.
    .
    absolutely true, I developed those scales as scales or tendancy towards and there was degrees off...

    I have friend who claims he doesn't know if he is a J or a P... if I'm meeting him I get at least 4 emails on travel plans and which trains I ought to take and where to change etc... I suspect he it totally oblivious to himself... so some of it does rest on self awareness...

  10. #10
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    3w4?
    Posts
    1,238

    Default

    Ae. I prefer things neat and tidy af. I tolerate mess pretty well
    Ag. I prefer it more when I have things planned ah. I prefer it more when I go with the flow
    Ai. I prefer things to be reliable aj. I prefer things to be spontaneous
    Ak. I知 more careful al. I知 more compulsive
    Am. I like to make solid arrangements an. I like to have open ended arrangements


    These're primarily the J/P dichotomies, however, most of these appear to be only symptomns of a greater whole, rather than the whole itself.

    Like... preferring solid arrangements, rather than open ended, isn't very accurate in and of itself, as there's several reasons possible for this preferance.

    The key here is to try to narrow down the various symptomns to list an actual cause.

    For J, let's see...

    We have

    - Neat and tidy (organization)
    - things planned (organization)
    - reliable (consistancy)
    - careful (fear of inconsistancy)
    - solid arrangements (consistancy and organization)

    These two seem fairly regular in their existance, so we can assume that the normal thought process of a J relies on consistancy and organization, though even these are only symptomns, both of which seem to refer to the requirement of having things comprised in such a way that they can be understood in a repetitive way. Without organization, it can be difficult to find something yeu're looking for, without consistancy, yeu can't predict how things will interact.

    Now, this doesn't mean that J assumes that yeu are rigid and unswerving, it seems like that's really just a preferance because it makes it easier to access the information and process it. If everything's a mess and nothing's defined, the J appears to have issues with being able to access and process the details, regardless of how the details are gained (via intuition or sensor).

    This falls into the original order vs chaos argument when broken down in this way, as preferance to order allows for ease of understanding details. This implies as well that J focuses more on the actual DETAILS themselves, and less on the reasoning behind WHY the details exist.

    Example being J would stick to the letter of the law, rather than worry about the spirit of the law perhaps, with P being the reverse?

    I'm not sure how accurate this is though, and it doesn't really seem to get us away from the original starting point, which in and of itself still seems to be only a symptom. Hrm.

    At which point does the mindset of the J or P reach intent of why they think this way? And is there any easy way to define their intent behind these actions?

Similar Threads

  1. I found the 5th dichotomy : Male/Female (offensive)
    By machintruc in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 02-21-2008, 08:30 AM
  2. Why are people always stuck on one dichotomy?
    By Ezra in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 01-24-2008, 02:12 AM
  3. Perceiving Dichotomy and Perception Disorders
    By MerkW in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 01-06-2008, 06:38 PM
  4. Symbolic learning: Part of the J/P dichotomy?
    By Athenian200 in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 08-24-2007, 05:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO