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Do you have J-dar and is it reliable?

Lauren Ashley

Revelation
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No I really do. The way they come into work and the first thing they do is sharpen their pencils and line them up according to length. . . all that stuff.

And their head-shaking bewilderment and disapproval of my disorderly lifestyle is also amusing. ;)
Yeah, such behavior can not be attributed to eight, very different types. I don't do any of what you've mentioned, but I'm pretty positive I'm a J. I think going off of how messy or disorganized someone is, is not the best way to gauge P vs. J. Slightly helpful, but not really.

I think she means that you're narrowing the definition of J. NJs are idea and people structure-oriented, not "thing" structure-oriented like SJs.
Precisely.

Huh. My list-making INFJ gf must be an outlier then. ;)
Probably lower on Ni, higher on Fe. Essentially, closer to ISFJ. I've noticed more organized INFJs, but they are of that type.
 

Liminality

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P's on the other hand are reacting to the moment by moment flow of the world around them and changing what they do to accommodate it. The flow is cyclical and continual: inside -> outside -> inside -> outside. Information flows in and out of them simultaneously.

YouTube - Hokey Cokey :D

Generally, no, unless people are really tight assed, or majorley...not.
 

KLessard

Aspiring Troens Ridder
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I think she means that you're narrowing the definition of J. NJs are idea and people structure-oriented, not "thing" structure-oriented like SJs.

True. NJs judge abstract things. They often could care less about objects or the environment looking neat. SJs care about that. I type INFJ and lots of SJs I know, in particular ESTJ, ISTJ and ESFJ, can really get on my nerves about this.
 

Lauren Ashley

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Look at the Jays saying how un-Jay they are!

I'm definitely a J. But not really outwardly organized in terms of making schedules, keeping things in an arranged order, etc. I can be organized just like everyone else, but it's not a priority; I have far more important grand schemes I'm working on in my head. J for me is about desiring closure and having things settled. Not about having my closet organized by color.
 

Jaguar

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NJs judge abstract things. They often could care less about objects or the environment looking neat.

That's certainly true of me.
My desk and room look like a bomb went off.
I have more important things to think about, than a clean room.
 

Tiltyred

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That's exactly how my living room was recently described. "Looks like a bomb went off" I make lists, and then I lose them. Then I wonder why I bothered with the list in the first place. But it all gets done in the end, that you can be sure of.
 

proteanmix

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A lot of SJs at my job offices and cubes look like target practice at a Xerox factory. But I'm sure they're very mentally organized, as The Other Jays are.
 

SillySapienne

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HAHAHAHAHAHAA, great thread title!

And, yes, I do.

It's reliable for me.

They, even the extroverts, always seem like they have a major inability to relax, ie, they're all uptight with nervous, and or frenetic, yet controlled energy.
 

Jaguar

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I make lists, and then I lose them. Then I wonder why I bothered with the list in the first place.

I get inside the grocery store and start cussing.
I left my list at home, or in the car. :D
 

Lauren Ashley

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A lot of SJs at my job offices and cubes look like target practice at a Xerox factory.

I'm not that messy. My mess is more of a "controlled" mess where if you did a quick glance over the room it will look slightly neat, but if you look closer you'll see dirty clothes in the desk chair and papers stuffed under the bed.

Anyway, I don't see being disorganized as something to aspire to. If I had the choice, I'd be neat; not excessively so, but enough. Just because I like aesthetically pleasing surroundings and too much overt mess negatively affects my mental state. But when I try to be, it doesn't work out.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
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I often portray my lack of understanding by asking silly questions, like, why do people hate it when I fart in an elevator. P people asking why J do the little things they do - now, that's about as clueless and almost as cute.

Why DO you fart in crowded elevators?
(Or did you mean empty elevators?)
((Or elevator shoes?))
(((Or shoe elevators?)))
((((And what is a shoe elevator anyway -- is that an elevator that just takes shoes from floor to floor, or is it a device that makes shoes taller, you know, like elevator shoes?))))

Hmmm. Why do you fart wearing elevator shoes?
 

proteanmix

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I'm not that messy. My mess is more of a "controlled" mess where if you did a quick glance over the room it will look slightly neat, but if you look closer you'll see dirty clothes in the desk chair and papers stuffed under the bed.

Anyway, I don't see being disorganized as something to aspire to. If I had the choice, I'd be neat; not excessively so, but enough. Just because I like aesthetically pleasing surroundings. But when I try to be, it doesn't work out.

I don't think it's anything wrong with saying you're an organized and tidy person. Like for example, one of my friends asks me to take of my shoes in her apartment. I don't think that's anal or OCD. It's her place, she doesn't want her carpet to get dirty and I respect that. If someone wants the space around them to be reasonably clean then I'm not going to all salty about it. I often find these threads go in the direction of NJs saying how un-J they are because real "Jness" (whatever that means) is what SJs do.

How my J manifests itself is more conscientious and closure-orientation than anything else. If I use a sink and splash water everywhere I take a paper towel and clean it up. If I'm in the grocery story and someone is buying one thing and I've got a grocery cart full of items, I let them go in front of me. I put things back the way I found them. I don't lose people's stuff they loan me and I return it in a timely manner. I keep my personal business documents organized and in a file cabinet. I'm not particularly good at keeping up with things like car maintenance, but I'm very people organized. I also make decisions fairly quickly and know what I like and want without a lot of cogitation.

The most stereotypically J people I know are two INTJs and INFJ. The INFJ makes lists on her cell phone, makes me take off my shoes when I enter her apartment, has all her shoes organized in clear plastic boxes, and asks me to pick up a crumb from a potato chip if it drops in her office. The INTJ, well, he's just horrible. I've been chastised for not keep my windshield clean. The other INTJ gets quite testy when we don't RSVP to events she organizes or return texts within a "timely manner." And these people aren't particularly light INJs either.

To the OP, yes there are some people that give off a stronger J and P vibe than others. My ENFP division director is very P-ish in her mannerisms: breezy and moves quickly from one thing to another, very "we'll work out that later" with nothing really finalized. My INFP director is more organized, but I feel like it's more of a learned trait (she's in her 60s) than a natural tendency. Her general feeling is still more P-ish in that I can tell in her personal life she's more go with the flow than professionally.

The vibe of my two ESFJ and ISTJ coworkers is not necessarily that they're obviously physically organized, but they are more closure-focused in their speech and actions. They take definite moves to move something along towards a goal, i.e. "Let's have a meeting to discuss this" or "I'll email this person to see if they're interested." Not that other types don't say this, but it's a more consistent moving a process towards something and giving/seeking direction. Compare to my NFP directors who will mention something in the hallway and that's the "meeting" or make remarks more casually with information dissemination being less official or linear.
 

Lauren Ashley

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The most stereotypically J people I know are two INTJs and INFJ. The INFJ makes lists on her cell phone, makes me take off my shoes when I enter her apartment, has all her shoes organized in clear plastic boxes, and asks me to pick up a crumb from a potato chip if it drops in her office. The INTJ, well, he's just horrible. I've been chastised for not keep my windshield clean. The other INTJ gets quite testy when we don't RSVP to events she organizes or return texts within a "timely manner." And these people aren't particularly light INJs either.

They would have to be less intuitive (i.e. their attention to the intangible is not much greater than their attention to the tangible). One can't be focusing on the abstract to an extremely large extent, while at the same time worrying about crumbs and RSVPs. The two are not compatible. That's why N and J are contradictory in many ways.
 

proteanmix

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They would have to be less intuitive because one can't be focusing on the abstract to an extremely large extent, while at the same time worrying about crumbs and RSVPs. The two are not compatible. That's why N and J are contradictory in many ways.

Or they are "more" intuitive and realize how bad they are at focusing on the present is and take extra measures to control for that. One of the alarms on the INFJs cell phone is to remind herself to buy toilet paper.

ETA: I think does a disservice to MBTI to equate intuition with degraded ability to deal with reality or life in the present tense. I work in an organization with many high-performing Ns (and Ss) and this is because they have found a balance.
 

Lauren Ashley

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Or they are "more" intuitive and realize how bad they are at focusing on the present is and take extra measures to control for that. One of the alarms on the INFJs cell phone is to remind herself to buy toilet paper.

I've tried to be hyper-organizational for that reason, but like I said, it does not work out. If she is successful at being excessively organized, I'd be more inclined to think she is not very intuitive. I can play the "wedding planner" for a few days, but not much longer than that.

ETA: I think does a disservice to MBTI to equate intuition with degraded ability to deal with reality or life in the present tense. I work in an organization with many high-performing Ns (and Ss) and this is because they have found a balance.

I'm not saying one can't deal with reality, but the excessive attention to detail which you listed is not compatible with intuition. It is, however, part and parcel with sensing.
 

proteanmix

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I've tried to be hyper-organizational for that reason, but like I said, it does not work out. If she is successful at being excessively organized, I'd be more inclined to think she is not very intuitive. I can play the "wedding planner" for a few days, but not much longer than that.

But that's you and your lack of success in these matters. Just because another INFJ is successful at juggling this doesn't mean they're less "N." People are able to learn skills and abilities. I'd still be counting on my fingers if that wasn't the case.
 

simulatedworld

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P and J is typically not too hard to pick up in extroverts because dominant Pe/Je is typically pretty obvious.

It's a little harder in introverts because you have to sit down and talk to them to discover the relevant functions, but...it's really pretty easy when you know which questions to ask.

You just find out if the person values internal or external organization more highly. That's about it.
 

Lauren Ashley

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But that's you and your lack of success in these matters. Just because another INFJ is successful at juggling this doesn't mean they're less "N." People are able to learn skills and abilities. I'd still be counting on my fingers if that wasn't the case.

Okay, that's your opinion. If you want to believe that the two are compatible despite the overwhelming evidence and theory that says otherwise, that's fine. But I'm not convinced in the slightest.
 

Orangey

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Hmmm...my belongings and physical space are very organized. I like order. But when I speak, I go off on tangents and frequently give off "we'll figure this out later" vibes. But I don't know. I'm definitely a P.
 
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