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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    The best way I can describe it, though remember it's really just a vague feeling I'm retrospectively interpreting, is that Js seem more reserved in a particular way, regardless of how open, expressive, extroverted and engaged they are.
    yeah, that.

    I call it "controlled." Even when they are friendly, it is rather practiced and streamline and "correct" -- exactly what they want to do. usually you're not seeing spontaneous energy coming out, it's polished and managed. It's very one-directional: Energy flows out of them into the world, but anything going in is pit into a holding container so it can be examined, categorized, THEN responded to.

    P's on the other hand are reacting to the moment by moment flow of the world around them and changing what they do to accommodate it. The flow is cyclical and continual: inside -> outside -> inside -> outside. Information flows in and out of them simultaneously.

    Put another way, J behavior tries to control the external world and make it accommodate them, P's allows the external world to impact them in the moment and then respond to it, to build an organic synergy.

    It's why most J's often can seem very "put together" even when they're trying to dress down, while P's often seem relaxed even when they're dressed up. Also why J's might seem rehearsed (because, actually, they HAVE been rehearsing to make sure everything's just the way they want it to go), while P is letting the external world help generate the script and responds to new information as it comes.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    yeah, that.

    I call it "controlled." Even when they are friendly, it is rather practiced and streamline and "correct" -- exactly what they want to do. usually you're not seeing spontaneous energy coming out, it's polished and managed. It's very one-directional: Energy flows out of them into the world, but anything going in is pit into a holding container so it can be examined, categorized, THEN responded to.

    P's on the other hand are reacting to the moment by moment flow of the world around them and changing what they do to accommodate it. The flow is cyclical and continual: inside -> outside -> inside -> outside. Information flows in and out of them simultaneously.

    Put another way, J behavior tries to control the external world and make it accommodate them, P's allows the external world to impact them in the moment and then respond to it, to build an organic synergy.

    It's why most J's often can seem very "put together" even when they're trying to dress down, while P's often seem relaxed even when they're dressed up. Also why J's might seem rehearsed (because, actually, they HAVE been rehearsing to make sure everything's just the way they want it to go), while P is letting the external world help generate the script and responds to new information as it comes.
    Thank you! I think you're articulating exactly what I mean. I just wish I could think of which specific cues I'm picking up on that give this away. Pronounced pausing and thoughtful looks before speaking would be the most obvious one but I think there must be more.

  3. #13
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasticus View Post
    No I really do. The way they come into work and the first thing they do is sharpen their pencils and line them up according to length. . . all that stuff.

    And their head-shaking bewilderment and disapproval of my disorderly lifestyle is also amusing.
    I think she means that you're narrowing the definition of J. NJs are idea and people structure-oriented, not "thing" structure-oriented like SJs.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    Thank you! I think you're articulating exactly what I mean. I just wish I could think of which specific cues I'm picking up on that give this away. Pronounced pausing and thoughtful looks before speaking would be the most obvious one but I think there must be more.
    I'm not sure what the "cues" are either, and plus I'm a holistic person -- I'm attuned to the overall presentation and can't really base the vibe on a particular clue, it's the overall look and feel of the person.

    Healthy J's are very good at doing the "right thing" -- where the right thing is either behaving appropriately for the social context (FJ) or taking the right practical steps that are known to accomplish the goal (TJ). They know the "plan" and they follow the "plan" unless something derails it (and then you'll get to see how flexy they are or aren't... but usually they keep trying to get back "on plan"). Sometimes I am left wondering what they REALLY feel (for FJs) or what they really think (for TJs), but they have to have a structure in place to feel comfortable.

    P's are much more apt to wing it. They adjust as they go. It's a vibe that says, "hey, I'm open" and "Hmm, what about this?"

    I guess the cues are simply how they look (visual), how they talk (is it closure-oriented or speculative?), and whether they accommodate the world or try to structure it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Circus Maximus Sarcasticus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I think she means that you're narrowing the definition of J. NJs are idea and people structure-oriented, not "thing" structure-oriented like SJs.
    Huh. My list-making INFJ gf must be an outlier then.

  6. #16
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Mmmbah I don't like these classifications. Too many J people would be easily typed as P, imo. There's some of us that are quite laid back. Js also have their perceiving functions in the ego block, they (we) can appear quite "speculative" when using them. In fact an ENTj using Ni appears more p-ish than an INTp using some heavy detail-oriented Te. It's better to use more holistic approaches.

    Anyway, to be my own devil's advocate, I must admit that while I hate lists (because I can remember what I have to do without writing it down), I do have some type of timetable-like plans.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  7. #17
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not sure what the "cues" are either, and plus I'm a holistic person -- I'm attuned to the overall presentation and can't really base the vibe on a particular clue, it's the overall look and feel of the person.

    Healthy J's are very good at doing the "right thing" -- where the right thing is either behaving appropriately for the social context (FJ) or taking the right practical steps that are known to accomplish the goal (TJ). They know the "plan" and they follow the "plan" unless something derails it (and then you'll get to see how flexy they are or aren't... but usually they keep trying to get back "on plan"). Sometimes I am left wondering what they REALLY feel (for FJs) or what they really think (for TJs), but they have to have a structure in place to feel comfortable.

    P's are much more apt to wing it. They adjust as they go. It's a vibe that says, "hey, I'm open" and "Hmm, what about this?"

    I guess the cues are simply how they look (visual), how they talk (is it closure-oriented or speculative?), and whether they accommodate the world or try to structure it.
    Agreed. I think physical presentation is one indicator. I think Js' choice of clothing and hairstyle tends to be more formal and tidy, with more symmetry. I wonder if you'd find particular speech tonal patterns as well, because some people sound more closure-oriented, whatever they're saying.

  8. #18
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Mmmbah I don't like these classifications. Too many J people would be easily typed as P, imo. There's some of us that are quite laid back. Js also have their perceiving functions in the ego block, they (we) can appear quite "speculative" when using them. In fact an ENTj using Ni appears more p-ish than an INTp using some heavy detail-oriented Te. It's better to use more holistic approaches.
    Possibly, but many people strike me as both speculative and J-ish, or both laid back in at least one sense and J-ish. This air of preparedness and structure we're talking about can co-exist happily with those traits I think.

  9. #19
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    Possibly, but many people strike me as both speculative and J-ish, or both laid back in at least one sense and J-ish. This air of preparedness and structure we're talking about can co-exist happily with those traits I think.
    Ok, right, I thought the system was more like a J had to possess all the traits listed.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  10. #20
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    As a reply to post somewhat up there.. ^^
    Those who portray themselves as ENTP have been the most vocal proponents of P and opponents of J in this forum. Not incidentally, they're the ones to reduce the whole distinction to the silliest levels.

    I often portray my lack of understanding by asking silly questions, like, why do people hate it when I fart in an elevator. P people asking why J do the little things they do - now, that's about as clueless and almost as cute.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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