Projection & Duality : My current thinking...

[Xander]

Okay first off this stuff is new to me, I don't have complete understanding of it and I'm posting this topic to work through my thinking and to see what other's say. As such please do add to any and all statements made "as far as I understand this...".

Also I'd like to warn those who are feeling defensive, this stuff is mean't to cut right to the core so either get yourself feeling happier before reading on or brace for impact (if I get this right that is...).

Lastly (this is a personal bugbear), should someone find an "official" theory to encompass all this prattling, I'd like to say right now, I'm unaware of it and no I'm not going to trawl the internet to try to find out if my thinking is validated by those who are paid to think about these things.

Right, principles.

Duality -
If you are one thing then you are it's opposite simultaneously. If you are honest, then you're also a scheming deceiver.

This is not a philosophy but something I've observed after having read MacGuffin's signature way back on INTP when he quoted Walt Whitman
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)

Since that point I've noted the common things like a T's feelings warping their logic or an Ss intuition assembling conspiracies. Also I've noted within people that those who value honesty are dishonest but reason why it is necessary to themselves whilst placing those who are dishonest on a list of people to heal or terminate.

Projection-
(I'm liable to get this even more wrong than duality so please bear with me)
You project your own personality onto others.
You project what you don't like about yourself onto others.

Ergo when I was just about ready to rant for ages about people blindly following what their predecessors set down as "fact" without a challenge I came to a juddering halt. What really wound me up was that I wasn't standing up for what I thought was true in everyday life. I'd nicely packaged it and placed it on someone else so I could demonise it and put them on a burning pyre.

Also when chatting to an INFP he told me that he went to someone's house and they brought him in and then went and made themselves a cup of tea. He said he'd made a point and said "It's customary to offer a guest a drink you know". It occurred to me that he was both not compensating for the fact that she's a T and probably hadn't thought about it and also treating her like she'd deliberately don't it which would be a more reasonable conclusion if she were like him, but she's not.

Note - I have read something about people projecting their inferior which doesn't yet make sense to me. That's one of the reasons for posting this lot.

I think it's like I as an INTP would not project my thoughts onto others but would project my values. Hence I can understand why people think differently to me but when they behave according to different values, that promotes a much stronger reaction.

Anyhow, please do tell me what you think. Discuss and stuff.

Thanks for reading this far, you poor bored wretch.. I shall now tell you something that will make this all worth while...

I'm done writing.

 

[Athenian200]

So, does that mean that even though I'm a nice person that's concerned with people's feelings, I'm also a jerk that doesn't respond to them? Interesting... I wonder how that plays out?

 

[Xander]

So, does that mean that even though I'm a nice person that's concerned with people's feelings, I'm also a jerk that doesn't respond to them? Interesting... I wonder how that plays out?

I think it's to do with motivation. You're nice in spite of your mean streak. Kind of like a gambler who swears never to touch gambling again the source of your resolve comes from having been down the other path.

I think...

 

[Xander]

Duality correction

Thanks to MacGuffin,

example INTP cares about intelligence fiercely.. I was wrong in saying it's because they're stupid.. it's more that they fear being stupid and feel stupid at times which promotes them to claim intelligence, try to be intelligent, acquire knowledge/ wisdom and also lay the smack down on anyone who is stupid.

There... that's a little better.

 

[INTJMom]

 

[MacGuffin]

So is it a projection of the negative aspects of ourselves, or the fear of them?

 

[wildcat]

Okay first off this stuff is new to me, I don't have complete understanding of it and I'm posting this topic to work through my thinking and to see what other's say. As such please do add to any and all statements made "as far as I understand this...".

Also I'd like to warn those who are feeling defensive, this stuff is mean't to cut right to the core so either get yourself feeling happier before reading on or brace for impact (if I get this right that is...).

Lastly (this is a personal bugbear), should someone find an "official" theory to encompass all this prattling, I'd like to say right now, I'm unaware of it and no I'm not going to trawl the internet to try to find out if my thinking is validated by those who are paid to think about these things.

Right, principles.

Duality -
If you are one thing then you are it's opposite simultaneously. If you are honest, then you're also a scheming deceiver.

This is not a philosophy but something I've observed after having read MacGuffin's signature way back on INTP when he quoted Walt Whitman
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)

Since that point I've noted the common things like a T's feelings warping their logic or an Ss intuition assembling conspiracies. Also I've noted within people that those who value honesty are dishonest but reason why it is necessary to themselves whilst placing those who are dishonest on a list of people to heal or terminate.

Projection-
(I'm liable to get this even more wrong than duality so please bear with me)
You project your own personality onto others.
You project what you don't like about yourself onto others.

Ergo when I was just about ready to rant for ages about people blindly following what their predecessors set down as "fact" without a challenge I came to a juddering halt. What really wound me up was that I wasn't standing up for what I thought was true in everyday life. I'd nicely packaged it and placed it on someone else so I could demonise it and put them on a burning pyre.

Also when chatting to an INFP he told me that he went to someone's house and they brought him in and then went and made themselves a cup of tea. He said he'd made a point and said "It's customary to offer a guest a drink you know". It occurred to me that he was both not compensating for the fact that she's a T and probably hadn't thought about it and also treating her like she'd deliberately don't it which would be a more reasonable conclusion if she were like him, but she's not.

Note - I have read something about people projecting their inferior which doesn't yet make sense to me. That's one of the reasons for posting this lot.

I think it's like I as an INTP would not project my thoughts onto others but would project my values. Hence I can understand why people think differently to me but when they behave according to different values, that promotes a much stronger reaction.

Anyhow, please do tell me what you think. Discuss and stuff.

Thanks for reading this far, you poor bored wretch.. I shall now tell you something that will make this all worth while...

I'm done writing.

Thank you Xander for a very good post.
I read this thread in the heat of the night.
So I do not read it now.

You raise your hand? Who gives the order?
Wrong question.
Why?

Quality is not inherent in the quantity per se.
The correct question is: When the order is given?
At the moment of the choice.

They say French changes to Italian in the Provence.
It does not.

French does not change to Italian anywhere.
Quality is not a locality.
It is a time dimension.

You are in London. Your friend is in New York. You speak in a telephone.
Where?
Not where.
When?

A unit is a tangent.
It is all it is.
A unit is not in either end.
It is the number one.

Loci does not number.
Number does not count.

 

[poppy]

So, does that mean that even though I'm a nice person that's concerned with people's feelings, I'm also a jerk that doesn't respond to them? Interesting... I wonder how that plays out?

Your words, not mine

 

[Xander]

So is it a projection of the negative aspects of ourselves, or the fear of them?

It seems that projection has many definitions, which is painful.

Firstly it forms part of the three stages of defence, denial, projection and avoidance. It's not my fault, you started it, well if I ignore it then it's all good.

Secondly it seems to be linked to perception of others. He did this because of this, cause that's what I'd do. We know this to be untrue through MBTI (possibly it's greatest application).

Thirdly there is this element where we naturally offset what we don't like about ourselves onto others.This is of course related to the first definition but it seems that it's a defence not against outside accusations but our own insecurities. Ergo although I am not attacked regularly about conforming my own mind will criticise me subconsiously for conforming, hence I release or displace this by getting all riled up at others for doing what I do myself.

Of course this stuff is either anathema to a good rant or the first thing out of the window in an argument.

 

[Xander]

Thank you Xander for a very good post.
I read this thread in the heat of the night.
So I do not read it now.

You raise your hand? Who gives the order?
Wrong question.
Why?

Quality is not inherent in the quantity per se.
The correct question is: When the order is given?
At the moment of the choice.

They say French changes to Italian in the Provence.
It does not.

French does not change to Italian anywhere.
Quality is not a locality.
It is a time dimension.

You are in London. Your friend is in New York. You speak in a telephone.
Where?
Not where.
When?

A unit is a tangent.
It is all it is.
A unit is not in either end.
It is the number one.

Loci does not number.
Number does not count.

Okay I'm not sure I get your perspective here. I get the feeling you're advocating disregarding scales to establish exact position. Correct?

If I understand the theory correctly we'd need to recognise that people are 4 dimensional, the standard 3 which make "reality" and the addition of time so we remain aware that people fluctuate.

Am I close?

 

[Eric B]

Okay I'm not sure I get your perspective here. I get the feeling you're advocating disregarding scales to establish exact position. Correct?

If I understand the theory correctly we'd need to recognise that people are 4 dimensional, the standard 3 which make "reality" and the addition of time so we remain aware that people fluctuate.

Am I close?

It's a matter of perspective. In the French/Italian example, the perspective is that of motion from one place to another. That motion takes time, hence, the language does "change" in time, because you are traversing time and space simultaneously. In one's own frame of reference, he is basically 'still', and things are moving/changing around him in time.

 

[Poki]

I tend to get into circles in my head with ENFJ types and I think it has something along these lines. I can see both sides easily and I get in my head, come up with a response, then see how I would react that way. Its a very strange feeling that can be easily detected. I just go in circles I may be projecting my inferior on an ENFJ which is who they are, but different and it really stumps me to no end.

I have had an ENFJ post on here that I responded 6 times and delete all six because they all led back to the same issue like a circle. No matter where you jumped in what angle I took I seemed to hit that circle. And everytime I was certain in my response until I read it and then had to delete it. Its like 2 sides of me were in such conflict with each other.

 

[sofmarhof]

example INTP cares about intelligence fiercely.. I was wrong in saying it's because they're stupid.. it's more that they fear being stupid and feel stupid at times which promotes them to claim intelligence, try to be intelligent, acquire knowledge/ wisdom and also lay the smack down on anyone who is stupid.

I went to a small private school where everybody knew how "smart" or "dumb" somebody was, and I had a definite reputation for being smart. I was told this all the time, but I didn't get a lot of satisfaction from it.

Now I go to a large, anonymous university, and I don't any classes with my best friends, not do I get as high grades as I used to. I find myself valuing my intelligence much more highly, whereas I used to value my creativity. It's like now that nobody is telling me how smart I am, I have to keep telling myself.