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  1. #1
    Senior Member Engler's Avatar
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    Default Functional Orientation ? Typological Orientation

    After reviewing the accepted definitions of the eight functions, it has come to my attention that, while extroverted functions are oriented toward the external world, those who choose to utilize them (primarily) are not necessarily extroverted, and vice versa (with regards to the introverted functions).

    Taken from Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes:

    Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together.
    Why must a dominant user of extroverted intuition (Ne) be extroverted? I can think of many situations in which one may prefer to utilize Ne while isolated from others.

    How does one even go about making the distinction between extroverted and introverted functions? Doesn't the wild speculation that accompanies Ne occur within the user's mind? And is it not also true that, despite the fact that Ti is considered to be an introverted functions, it can easily be directed toward the outside world (perhaps in tandem with an extroverted perceiving function)?

    I propose that the traditional concept of "extroverted" and "introverted" functions is revised in such a way, so that they are classified according to the activity with they are associated, rather than their supposed orientation (e.g. "speculative intuition" as opposed to "extroverted intuition", "analytical thinking" as opposed to "introverted thinking", so on and so forth).

    Thoughts?
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    Be careful in your use of Extraverted and Extroverted. Notice your use of extroversion vs the use of extraversion in the snippet. Extraversion meaning oriented outside of oneself, and introverted meaning oriented into oneself. If I got the spelling wrong, my basic point is that the usual associations of these words are not the ones we are making.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engler View Post
    After reviewing the accepted definitions of the eight functions, it has come to my attention that, while extroverted functions are oriented toward the external world, those who choose to utilize them (primarily) are not necessarily extroverted, and vice versa (with regards to the introverted functions).

    Taken from Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes:



    Why must a dominant user of extroverted intuition (Ne) be extroverted? I can think of many situations in which one may prefer to utilize Ne while isolated from others.

    How does one even go about making the distinction between extroverted and introverted functions? Doesn't the wild speculation that accompanies Ne occur within the user's mind? And is it not also true that, despite the fact that Ti is considered to be an introverted functions, it can easily be directed toward the outside world (perhaps in tandem with an extroverted perceiving function)?

    I propose that the traditional concept of "extroverted" and "introverted" functions is revised in such a way, so that they are classified according to the activity with they are associated, rather than their supposed orientation (e.g. "speculative intuition" as opposed to "extroverted intuition", "analytical thinking" as opposed to "introverted thinking", so on and so forth).

    Thoughts?
    Agreed. You are also an observant person.

    IMO, you do not have to be an E to lead with an I function in a particular circumstance.
    Nor do you need to be an I to lead with an E function in a particular circumstance.
    But then I don't have a brain that strangles itself with "models."
    For decades my mantra has been: Imagine the possibilities.
    So of course I would apply that to typology.

    I started a thread on Ni.
    I created that thread for many reasons.
    So who is to say that an ENTJ can't lead with Ni, depending on the circumstance,
    and lead with Te in another circumstance?

    Well of course it's possible.
    Anything is possible with the human brain.
    No two brains are exactly alike.
    You don't have to be a Neurosurgeon to know that fact.

    But of course what you and I speak of, will upset the apple cart of conventional thinking.
    What you may get from others, is 100 reasons why what you suggest won't work.
    If your dare ask them to knock down the restrictive walls of their mental models,
    you have committed something of a minor "crime."

    The bottom line is, no one can disprove what you suggest could be true.
    And for anyone to use the redundant excuse of: "It wouldn't be healthy, or balanced functions."
    is not an acceptable answer, or argument, to what you propose.

    I support reform of any kind to the current system.
    Its inherent restrictive nature is not keeping up with reality.
    Nor is it keeping up with what is possible in human behavior.

  4. #4
    Senior Member paintmuffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engler View Post
    Why must a dominant user of extroverted intuition (Ne) be extroverted? I can think of many situations in which one may prefer to utilize Ne while isolated from others.
    I think that's why you can be ENTP (or ENFP) without actually being "E" as MBTI defines it. Because I'm certainly not very people-oriented.
    (that's my theory anyway.)
    A colleague of the great scientist James Watson remarked that Watson was always “lounging around, arguing about problems instead of doing experiments.” He concluded that “There is more than one way of doing good science.”
    It was Watson’s form of idleness, the scientist went on to say, that allowed him to solve “the greatest of all biological problems: the discovery of the structure of DNA.” It's a point worth remembering in a society overly concerned with efficiency.

  5. #5
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Agreed. You are also an observant person.

    IMO, you do not have to be an E to lead with an I function in a particular circumstance.
    Nor do you need to be an I to lead with an E function in a particular circumstance.
    But then I don't have a brain that strangles itself with "models."
    For decades my mantra has been: Imagine the possibilities.
    So of course I would apply that to typology.

    I started a thread on Ni.
    I created that thread for many reasons.
    So who is to say that an ENTJ can't lead with Ni, depending on the circumstance,
    and lead with Te in another circumstance?.
    You're correct; ENTJ does lead with Ni in many circumstances. In fact, a truly balanced ENTJ looks more like xNTJ in the long run because he's learned to totally balance Te and Ni in the right situations.

    An ENTJ using secondary Ni will temporarily look like an INTJ, and an INTJ using secondary Te will temporarily look just like an ENTJ.

    ENTJ should study INTJ to learn about Ni and vice versa for INTJs and Te.

    In reality, E/I is by far the least significant letter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Engler View Post
    Why must a dominant user of extroverted intuition (Ne) be extroverted? I can think of many situations in which one may prefer to utilize Ne while isolated from others.

    Thoughts?
    Because extroversion doesn't actually have anything to do with being social; that's an MBTI oversimplification.

    Extroversion/introversion are not functions themselves, but rather directional attitudes of functions S/N/T/F.

    Ne users are extroverted when using Ne, because "extroverted" simply means "drawing its energy from the external world." We as Ne users need the external world to support and validate our intuition, but that doesn't mean we're interested specifically in other people--other people are just often the only realistic means of getting that external interaction, so that becomes what we use by default.

    Not because we're inherently interested in other people.

    On the other hand, introverted types who use Ne (INxP) are also extroverted during the times they are using Ne! They just appear introverted more often because they use Ti/Fi more often, but when in secondary Ne mode they will look like their ENxP counterparts.


    Quote Originally Posted by paintmuffin View Post
    I think that's why you can be ENTP (or ENFP) without actually being "E" as MBTI defines it. Because I'm certainly not very people-oriented.
    (that's my theory anyway.)
    This is why ENTPs (and to a lesser extent ENFPs) are often considered the most introverted of E types. We do get our jollies largely from the external world, but not necessarily from the people in it.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    Interesting responses. What rules are we going by here, and by that I mean, what source materials are we basing our observations off of? I think i'm going to make my own model. With beer. and hookers. In fact, forget the model. Also, your paragraph style is in an interesting format there, Jaguar.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Engler's Avatar
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    If one's functional orientation shifts depending upon usage, why bother making the I/E distinction (unless I/E also connote the existence of a long-term preference, instead of just a temporary perspective)?
    http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u56/EnglerMeister/hehh.jpg

  8. #8
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engler View Post
    If one's functional orientation shifts depending upon usage, why bother making the I/E distinction (unless I/E also connote the existence of a long-term preference, instead of just a temporary perspective)?
    Because Myers and Briggs are morons.

    Seriously though, it helps to know which of the two primary functions tends to get the most priority.

    As I said, a truly balanced individual is neither E nor I in the long run, but knows how to utilize each in the right situations.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Engler's Avatar
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    Fair enough.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You're correct; ENTJ does lead with Ni in many circumstances. In fact, a truly balanced ENTJ looks more like xNTJ in the long run because he's learned to totally balance Te and Ni in the right situations.
    Click on my profile and look in the "Biography" field.

    I was just talking to a forum buddy of mine about this last night.
    I do not identify with most of the ENTJs in this forum.
    For lack of a better word, I "resonate" better with INTJs.
    I could say more, but then I would be stirring up a hornets nest.

    I actually prefer to be called XNTJ. It fits me perfectly.
    It's not that I can't decide-- that's bullshit.
    It's that I know damn well that I can use Ni and Te with agility.

    You may, or may not have, noticed but there are a few young INTJs, leading with Te.
    You can tell by their obsessive clinging to demanding "evidence" for everything.
    It's as if Ni is completely foreign to them.

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