• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Functional Orientation ≠ Typological Orientation

Engler

New member
Joined
Dec 9, 2008
Messages
114
MBTI Type
Enneagram
N/A
After reviewing the accepted definitions of the eight functions, it has come to my attention that, while extroverted functions are oriented toward the external world, those who choose to utilize them (primarily) are not necessarily extroverted, and vice versa (with regards to the introverted functions).

Taken from Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes:

Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together.

Why must a dominant user of extroverted intuition (Ne) be extroverted? I can think of many situations in which one may prefer to utilize Ne while isolated from others.

How does one even go about making the distinction between extroverted and introverted functions? Doesn't the wild speculation that accompanies Ne occur within the user's mind? And is it not also true that, despite the fact that Ti is considered to be an introverted functions, it can easily be directed toward the outside world (perhaps in tandem with an extroverted perceiving function)?

I propose that the traditional concept of "extroverted" and "introverted" functions is revised in such a way, so that they are classified according to the activity with they are associated, rather than their supposed orientation (e.g. "speculative intuition" as opposed to "extroverted intuition", "analytical thinking" as opposed to "introverted thinking", so on and so forth).

Thoughts?
 

DuoRCN

New member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
19
Be careful in your use of Extraverted and Extroverted. Notice your use of extroversion vs the use of extraversion in the snippet. Extraversion meaning oriented outside of oneself, and introverted meaning oriented into oneself. If I got the spelling wrong, my basic point is that the usual associations of these words are not the ones we are making.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
After reviewing the accepted definitions of the eight functions, it has come to my attention that, while extroverted functions are oriented toward the external world, those who choose to utilize them (primarily) are not necessarily extroverted, and vice versa (with regards to the introverted functions).

Taken from Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes:



Why must a dominant user of extroverted intuition (Ne) be extroverted? I can think of many situations in which one may prefer to utilize Ne while isolated from others.

How does one even go about making the distinction between extroverted and introverted functions? Doesn't the wild speculation that accompanies Ne occur within the user's mind? And is it not also true that, despite the fact that Ti is considered to be an introverted functions, it can easily be directed toward the outside world (perhaps in tandem with an extroverted perceiving function)?

I propose that the traditional concept of "extroverted" and "introverted" functions is revised in such a way, so that they are classified according to the activity with they are associated, rather than their supposed orientation (e.g. "speculative intuition" as opposed to "extroverted intuition", "analytical thinking" as opposed to "introverted thinking", so on and so forth).

Thoughts?

Agreed. You are also an observant person.

IMO, you do not have to be an E to lead with an I function in a particular circumstance.
Nor do you need to be an I to lead with an E function in a particular circumstance.
But then I don't have a brain that strangles itself with "models."
For decades my mantra has been: Imagine the possibilities.
So of course I would apply that to typology.

I started a thread on Ni.
I created that thread for many reasons.
So who is to say that an ENTJ can't lead with Ni, depending on the circumstance,
and lead with Te in another circumstance?

Well of course it's possible.
Anything is possible with the human brain.
No two brains are exactly alike.
You don't have to be a Neurosurgeon to know that fact.

But of course what you and I speak of, will upset the apple cart of conventional thinking.
What you may get from others, is 100 reasons why what you suggest won't work.
If your dare ask them to knock down the restrictive walls of their mental models,
you have committed something of a minor "crime."

The bottom line is, no one can disprove what you suggest could be true.
And for anyone to use the redundant excuse of: "It wouldn't be healthy, or balanced functions."
is not an acceptable answer, or argument, to what you propose.

I support reform of any kind to the current system.
Its inherent restrictive nature is not keeping up with reality.
Nor is it keeping up with what is possible in human behavior.
 

paintmuffin

New member
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
159
MBTI Type
eNTP
Why must a dominant user of extroverted intuition (Ne) be extroverted? I can think of many situations in which one may prefer to utilize Ne while isolated from others.

I think that's why you can be ENTP (or ENFP) without actually being "E" as MBTI defines it. Because I'm certainly not very people-oriented.
(that's my theory anyway.)
 

simulatedworld

Freshman Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
5,552
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Agreed. You are also an observant person.

IMO, you do not have to be an E to lead with an I function in a particular circumstance.
Nor do you need to be an I to lead with an E function in a particular circumstance.
But then I don't have a brain that strangles itself with "models."
For decades my mantra has been: Imagine the possibilities.
So of course I would apply that to typology.

I started a thread on Ni.
I created that thread for many reasons.
So who is to say that an ENTJ can't lead with Ni, depending on the circumstance,
and lead with Te in another circumstance?.

You're correct; ENTJ does lead with Ni in many circumstances. In fact, a truly balanced ENTJ looks more like xNTJ in the long run because he's learned to totally balance Te and Ni in the right situations.

An ENTJ using secondary Ni will temporarily look like an INTJ, and an INTJ using secondary Te will temporarily look just like an ENTJ.

ENTJ should study INTJ to learn about Ni and vice versa for INTJs and Te.

In reality, E/I is by far the least significant letter.


Why must a dominant user of extroverted intuition (Ne) be extroverted? I can think of many situations in which one may prefer to utilize Ne while isolated from others.

Thoughts?

Because extroversion doesn't actually have anything to do with being social; that's an MBTI oversimplification.

Extroversion/introversion are not functions themselves, but rather directional attitudes of functions S/N/T/F.

Ne users are extroverted when using Ne, because "extroverted" simply means "drawing its energy from the external world." We as Ne users need the external world to support and validate our intuition, but that doesn't mean we're interested specifically in other people--other people are just often the only realistic means of getting that external interaction, so that becomes what we use by default.

Not because we're inherently interested in other people.

On the other hand, introverted types who use Ne (INxP) are also extroverted during the times they are using Ne! They just appear introverted more often because they use Ti/Fi more often, but when in secondary Ne mode they will look like their ENxP counterparts.


I think that's why you can be ENTP (or ENFP) without actually being "E" as MBTI defines it. Because I'm certainly not very people-oriented.
(that's my theory anyway.)

This is why ENTPs (and to a lesser extent ENFPs) are often considered the most introverted of E types. We do get our jollies largely from the external world, but not necessarily from the people in it.
 

DuoRCN

New member
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
19
Interesting responses. What rules are we going by here, and by that I mean, what source materials are we basing our observations off of? I think i'm going to make my own model. With beer. and hookers. In fact, forget the model. Also, your paragraph style is in an interesting format there, Jaguar.
 

Engler

New member
Joined
Dec 9, 2008
Messages
114
MBTI Type
Enneagram
N/A
If one's functional orientation shifts depending upon usage, why bother making the I/E distinction (unless I/E also connote the existence of a long-term preference, instead of just a temporary perspective)?
 

simulatedworld

Freshman Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
5,552
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
If one's functional orientation shifts depending upon usage, why bother making the I/E distinction (unless I/E also connote the existence of a long-term preference, instead of just a temporary perspective)?

Because Myers and Briggs are morons.

Seriously though, it helps to know which of the two primary functions tends to get the most priority.

As I said, a truly balanced individual is neither E nor I in the long run, but knows how to utilize each in the right situations.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
You're correct; ENTJ does lead with Ni in many circumstances. In fact, a truly balanced ENTJ looks more like xNTJ in the long run because he's learned to totally balance Te and Ni in the right situations.

Click on my profile and look in the "Biography" field.

I was just talking to a forum buddy of mine about this last night.
I do not identify with most of the ENTJs in this forum.
For lack of a better word, I "resonate" better with INTJs.
I could say more, but then I would be stirring up a hornets nest.

I actually prefer to be called XNTJ. It fits me perfectly.
It's not that I can't decide-- that's bullshit.
It's that I know damn well that I can use Ni and Te with agility.

You may, or may not have, noticed but there are a few young INTJs, leading with Te.
You can tell by their obsessive clinging to demanding "evidence" for everything.
It's as if Ni is completely foreign to them.
 

Quinlan

Intriguing....
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
3,004
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
9w1
There is the possibility that the dominant function can be so encompassing of your view and interactions with the world, that you take it for granted and do not recognise it's dominance. It's quite common for people to be surprised to find out that not everyone sees the world through the same dominant lens that they do.

I think the theory is that functional orders, are underlying methods of operation, we can pick and choose functions to use as tool's but the overall method we use is supposed to be ingrained.

Your dominant function (to me) is natural, instinctive, all encompassing and constant. People are often better at describing their second function than their dominant as they have no reference point to describe their dominant from, it IS their reference point.
 

VagrantFarce

Active member
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
1,558
If one's functional orientation shifts depending upon usage, why bother making the I/E distinction (unless I/E also connote the existence of a long-term preference, instead of just a temporary perspective)?

Because not everyone has their primary and secondary functions balanced, and depending on their function makeup they will act differently in moments of stress. So that distinction still helps. :)
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
^ I have seen people lean real hard on a single function.
It's as if their secondary doesn't even exist.
 

Moiety

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,996
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Nice topic with very pertinent questions.

There is the possibility that the dominant function can be so encompassing of your view and interactions with the world, that you take it for granted and do not recognise it's dominance. It's quite common for people to be surprised to find out that not everyone sees the world through the same dominant lens that they do.

I think the theory is that functional orders, are underlying methods of operation, we can pick and choose functions to use as tool's but the overall method we use is supposed to be ingrained.

Your dominant function (to me) is natural, instinctive, all encompassing and constant. People are often better at describing their second function than their dominant as they have no reference point to describe their dominant from, it IS their reference point.

Agreed. I have a hard time explaining why I'm a Ne dominant. And I do think my "identity" feels more connected to Fi (and Ti, my third strongest). It's more conscious.
 

simulatedworld

Freshman Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
5,552
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
There is the possibility that the dominant function can be so encompassing of your view and interactions with the world, that you take it for granted and do not recognise it's dominance. It's quite common for people to be surprised to find out that not everyone sees the world through the same dominant lens that they do.

I think the theory is that functional orders, are underlying methods of operation, we can pick and choose functions to use as tool's but the overall method we use is supposed to be ingrained.

Your dominant function (to me) is natural, instinctive, all encompassing and constant. People are often better at describing their second function than their dominant as they have no reference point to describe their dominant from, it IS their reference point.

This is absolutely correct; good work.



Click on my profile and look in the "Biography" field.

I was just talking to a forum buddy of mine about this last night.
I do not identify with most of the ENTJs in this forum.
For lack of a better word, I "resonate" better with INTJs.
I could say more, but then I would be stirring up a hornets nest.

Well, you've gotten better about that, and no offense intended here, but you still make Ni subservient to Te's ends a lot of times on the forum here.

Your Ni "just knows" something and you will insist beyond all insistence that it's true because your Te so desires immediately tangible results/proof.

It's actually common for people to openly identify more with the auxiliary function, because that's the one that you use consciously most often. The dominant is like a lens through which everything you perceive is inherently colored, so often it's difficult to even realize how much the dominant function is coloring your perceptions of everything.

That said, you do have better Ni than most of the ENTJs here when you turn off Te for a minute and let it out. (Like now, for instance.)

I actually prefer to be called XNTJ. It fits me perfectly.
It's not that I can't decide-- that's bullshit.
It's that I know damn well that I can use Ni and Te with agility.

Yes, the first letter E/I is unique in that regard because both are actually weaknesses. In the long run you should be able to switch between both primary functions whenever each is necessary, so xNTJ (or any type with no real E/I preference) is superior.

By the way, I think you're mistaken in saying that your Ne matches your Ni. You repeatedly cite your test scores, saying that "some people test highly in both Ne and Ni", not really realizing that these are not fundamentally testable propositions.

Such tests are not testing your Ne; they are testing your Ni's ability to imitate Ne in tasks that are traditionally done best by Ne users. We all do this...Ne is such a distinctly NP function that claiming that yours is equal to your Ni would require you to be equal parts xNTP and xNTJ, which you're not. You're clearly extremely J.

You may, or may not have, noticed but there are a few young INTJs, leading with Te.
You can tell by their obsessive clinging to demanding "evidence" for everything.
It's as if Ni is completely foreign to them.

Yes I have noticed this, and I've also noticed that you don't realize how much you do this, too. Js (especially EJs) tend to appear more stubborn and mechanical to the outer world than they really are; Ps tend to appear more flighty and uncertain of their positions than they really are.

I don't see your internal openness very often, and you don't see my internal consistency very often (hence your criticisms that I have "no consistency of thought." It's because I don't/can't show you my Ti as easily as my Ne.) But both are definitely there.

Remember that the rest of us can't really see or interact directly with your Ni because introverted functions don't express themselves to the outside world easily.

Often when you are on one of your rants, Te is the only thing we see. I realize that inside you're more flexible than that, but you don't show it as much as you think you do. The same is probably true of these ENTJs who over-rely on Te...you just think they're worse about it than you because you can't see their Ni, but you can see your own.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Well, you've gotten better about that, and no offense intended here, but you still make Ni subservient to Te's ends a lot of times on the forum here.

Who cares about what goes on this forum? It's not real life.
You've got 100's of online personas in this group.
For all your know I'm an 85-year old transvestite with bad breath.
 

Oaky

Travelling mind
Joined
Jan 15, 2009
Messages
6,180
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
transvestite.jpg
 

simulatedworld

Freshman Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
5,552
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Who cares about what goes on this forum? It's not real life.
You've got 100's of online personas in this group.
For all your know I'm an 85-year old transvestite with bad breath.

Do me a favor and at least try to learn something from what I said (Ni) instead of just dismissing me outright (Te).
 

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
After reviewing the accepted definitions of the eight functions, it has come to my attention that, while extroverted functions are oriented toward the external world, those who choose to utilize them (primarily) are not necessarily extroverted, and vice versa (with regards to the introverted functions).

Taken from Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes:



Why must a dominant user of extroverted intuition (Ne) be extroverted? I can think of many situations in which one may prefer to utilize Ne while isolated from others.

How does one even go about making the distinction between extroverted and introverted functions? Doesn't the wild speculation that accompanies Ne occur within the user's mind? And is it not also true that, despite the fact that Ti is considered to be an introverted functions, it can easily be directed toward the outside world (perhaps in tandem with an extroverted perceiving function)?

I propose that the traditional concept of "extroverted" and "introverted" functions is revised in such a way, so that they are classified according to the activity with they are associated, rather than their supposed orientation (e.g. "speculative intuition" as opposed to "extroverted intuition", "analytical thinking" as opposed to "introverted thinking", so on and so forth).

Thoughts?

Extroversion is just defined as using an extroverted function more than the rest. Ditto for introversion. They are not the same usages of the words as you would find in the dictionary. That is all.
 
Top