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  1. #1
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Default TP's/FP's: Effects of Fi in last place vs "preferred" position?

    Still have questions as to how Fi affects other INTP's.
    Fi is supposed to be an internal ethical system dealing with personal and universal values, and also described by Hartzler as "the Conscience" (while Ti is "The Analyst", and Fe is "The Guide").

    So how are INTP's with conscience? Part of the "emotionless robot" stereotype would include having no conscience, being Fi is supposed to be at the bottom of the consciousness. Conscience is then assumed to only "bother" FP's. Yet I'm thinking it would really be less of a 'bother' to those for whom it is 'heroic' or 'parental' (preferred; in first two positions), and if it bothers you, it is a sign of a shadow role.

    So, when it does surface, we would expect it to be very negative, according to the "demon/destructive" archetype. Even though I have come to see these archetypes as complexes that do not mark every manifestation of behavior associated with the function; when in the "demonic personality" complex (under stress, in a situation when the Ti hero cannot solve the problem, and the "right brain alternative" kicks in), we would expect negative reactions involving matters of conscience and values.
    With me, I have always had a very negative reaction towards guilt, and often get annoyed just from seeing another person who appears morally self-contented, especially if they have been moralizing at others. Hence, I used to be irritated by Christian preachers who condemned everyone else. This creates a desire to lash back, and destroy their stance, using the same process in a destructive way, like a club, as one person described to me. (I do eventually become a Christian myself due to other factors, but still would remain opposed to those who take the moralizing past a certain point; and now I could try to beat them at their own game).

    I imagine that this is from Fi being the most rejected part of the self, so you're totally allergic to guilt, and hence, try to squelch it and thus this would make the type appear to have little conscience.

    And I imagine there would be a sort of deep-seated envy towards those who appear to have clear consciences, especially if they gain this by judging you or others, or if you know they are not really innocent. (And especially if they are guilty of the same things they criticize you or others for). Hence, a desire to strip them down.
    Fi types; I have seen described as tending to respond to conscience by giving in more (unless a core value is really at stake). They don't seem to actively resist just to avoid guilt feelings.

    So is this accurate for other INTP's (and ISTP's)? And would FP's tend to be less allergic to guilt feelings, and more embracing of conscience, and more tolerant toward moralizing and self-contentment in others?

    Are TP's also irritated by someone telling you to examine yourself (outside of the normal examining we do regarding fitting into a type or using the theory). You know; in a moralistic way? Like when they are criticizing you for something, and you deflect it, but then they say to "look at yourself" so you can recognize and change "faults"? (Self-examination, I believe, being associated with Fi).
    Do you tend to bring on this admonition by pointing out others' wrong when they criticize you (which I believe would be Se as Trickster; using concrete facts to double bind the other person by throwing the charges back on them or others)?
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  2. #2
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    I have a hard enough time pinning down what Fi even is, nevermind if I experience it. I just assume any moral or emotional outrage on my part is informed by Fe.

  3. #3
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    I have a hard enough time pinning down what Fi even is,

    This.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Cybin's Avatar
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    Ti and Fi seem to be extremely close. Both functions desire to weed out the superficial and find truth within.

    IME (and I'm just musing) INTPs function on a stronger moral framework than is admitted. The stereotype of the unhealthy INTP shows this. It could be that stubborness to look at anything but their own view is an equally weak Fi holding dearly to it's values.

    I've found calling it the devil function is interesting. What I think is that Fi is running unconsciously or unoticed somehow and pulls and tempts Ti. I'd also venture to say the same is true with INFPs and Ti but Im in the same boat as above in that I have only a loose grasp of Ti and I wouldn't know how it is affecting me.

  5. #5
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I've conversed with one INFP elsehwere, and I can tell that too much analyzing of the frameworks of type theory gets on their nerves. To them, it is ultimately about personal improvement, and the simpler the theory, the better (so you don't spend too much time with impersonal theorizing). He also once described using Ti in a destructive fashion, and deconstructing complex theories for something simpler.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Cybin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I've conversed with one INFP elsehwere, and I can tell that too much analyzing of the frameworks of type theory gets on their nerves. To them, it is ultimately about personal improvement, and the simpler the theory, the better (so you don't spend too much time with impersonal theorizing). He also once described using Ti in a destructive fashion, and deconstructing complex theories for something simpler.
    I can speak for all INFPs, but for me it's exploring the theory that's fun. I see minimal personal improvent opportunities from it. The more you simplify, the less it helps.

    Again, I really only have a loose grasp on Ti. It still seems to me that when someone is using one function, the other is pulling and having a say unbeknownst to the person at equal "health level" so to speak.

    You say that the INFP claimed to use Ti destructively? Did it seem like her Fi was out of check as well? That, or she was using Te to use the knowledge of MB in a practical way and not Ti.

  7. #7
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybin View Post
    Ti and Fi seem to be extremely close. Both functions desire to weed out the superficial and find truth within.
    Excellent! Most people don't realize this. They think Fi is more similar to Fe or the same for Ti/Te, but in reality Fi and Ti are much closer because they are both Ji functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybin View Post
    IME (and I'm just musing) INTPs function on a stronger moral framework than is admitted. The stereotype of the unhealthy INTP shows this. It could be that stubborness to look at anything but their own view is an equally weak Fi holding dearly to it's values.
    Nope, that's a misread on your part. It's just immature Ti.

    Ti and Fi are both forms of "conscience" and both find it very important to reach internally consistent "objective truth" (though Ni would deny any such thing exists)...

    As a result both are quite self-righteous about asserting the objective "correctness" of the guiding principles of their belief systems...both are forms of logic; the only real difference is that Fi considers it objectively obvious that people and their feelings should always be considered a part of logical decision-making, whereas Ti considers logic and people to be separate entities. (Both have a lot of trouble accepting that they might be wrong.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybin View Post
    I've found calling it the devil function is interesting. What I think is that Fi is running unconsciously or unoticed somehow and pulls and tempts Ti. I'd also venture to say the same is true with INFPs and Ti but Im in the same boat as above in that I have only a loose grasp of Ti and I wouldn't know how it is affecting me.
    You're on the right track--these are called shadow functions. If Fi is your dominant function, then Ti is your shadow dominant (which is much easier to exercise than Fe, your shadow inferior.)

    But you don't ever directly exercise shadow functions--you just learn to imitate them in terms of the surface function. Fi can force itself to behave like Ti in situations where it sees that failing to use impersonal logic would result in an unethical decision--for instance, an INFP judge must realize that, even though he is fundamentally opposed to inflicting pain, he must sometimes punish the guilty in an objectively impersonal manner because failure to do so would constitute a broader breach of ethics. This is how Fi imitates Ti briefly, but always collapses back onto itself. Fi ends up reaching a Ti decision, but it's very important to realize that Fi is still ultimately in command--it just puts on a Ti mask for a moment.

    Ti also imitates Fi in a similar manner for TPs; for instance, I do have a code of internal "ethics" but they're really just based on the fact that not following them would create a clearly logically inconsistent viewpoint--not because I think logic is inherently tied to the personal aspect of anything.

    So when I get upset about something unethical, it may look like Fi, but in actuality it's just Ti recognizing a situation where failing to consider the personal side of things would create an inconsistency in terms of purely impersonal logic--note that Ti is still the underlying cause!

    Nice insights here though.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #8
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Interesting.(Never heard of Ti associated with conscience, or the eight place as "shadow dominant", though that would apparently go along with "right brain alternative" theory).
    The "imitation" would probably be connected with what I have been saying about "undifferentiated" functions as I understand the concept. It's not differentiated as a distinct "introverted Feeling" function, so it basically comes out as the dominant function yielding the same results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybin View Post
    I can speak for all INFPs, but for me it's exploring the theory that's fun. I see minimal personal improvent opportunities from it. The more you simplify, the less it helps.
    I guess that's the Ne, then, which gives NFP's an appreciation for theory. But I don't think they ever get into it for its own sake (such as just liking the symmetries of the dichotomies, etc) as much as NTP's.

    Wouldn't it seem too "impersonal" after awhile?

    You say that the INFP claimed to use Ti destructively? Did it seem like her Fi was out of check as well? That, or she was using Te to use the knowledge of MB in a practical way and not Ti.
    I can't find the relevant discussion right now. It was something about getting into an argumentative mode under stress, and then wielding the function like a weapon and having this sense of beating the other side (can't remember the exact words or analogies, but something like that), and that is how I used to get when arguing over values with more conservative Christians.
    It wasn't Te he was describing that time; it was a more shadowy reaction than using the inferior (which I now believe is really more about vulnerability and innocent ideals anyway than something you really fight with).

    But the main question, again: Do you NTP's out there ever experience Fi ("The Conscience") as a condemning judge, and then use it on others as a club? (aside from using Ti to imitate it).
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