Explain...

[Thalassa]

Today I was thinking about MBTI and my use of F. So I came up with the following-

Fi: WHAT? You disrespecting me?! Bitch, prepare to APOLOGIZE!
Fe: WHAT!? You mistreat my friends? You violate human rights?! Bitch, prepare to be HUMANIZED!

I guess that would be my Ne thinking, you know, constantly coming up with ideas by jumping/piggybacking, and leapfrogging for a original idea.

HA, and yes, I agree with the ENFP earlier who said when they're inspired, everybody should get out of the way.
When I do that, I start writing my ideas on a spare peice of paper before my next leapfrog thought comes.

My interpretation of this is that Fi would actually do both of the things you have listed (stand up for self and friends) and that Fe might do it too, but in a more "socially appropriate" way intended to smooth things over with all parties involved, like a PC referree. I don't see Fe in general saying "Bitch prepare to be ________" lol. Maybe it's just me...

 

[simulatedworld]

Concerning human rights in particular. I consider Fe to be human rights, and Fi the interpretation thereof.

Uhh no, seriously, Fe doesn't care about moral ideals. Fe's morality comes entirely from its community and will change if the community's moral opinion changes. Fe has NOTHING to do with arbitrary conceptions of morality about things like human rights; that is 100% Fi, no matter what you "consider" it to be.

Fe could potentially care about human rights but only as a function of its community group picking human rights as an important cause!

Remember, Fe's morals come from its surroundings, not from within.

Hmmm. I always thought that being an Fe user means you liked to care for others, as in, "I need to care for others". Or maybe, it's just those who are close to them or whatnot. Excuse me while I go myself.

Fe usually needs to care for others because caring for others is almost universally considered an appropriate emotional response by the standards of just about every community in history. Fe reads and responds directly to the emotional sensibilities of others only insofar as community standards say it should--if an Fe user thinks you are behaving inappropriately, he will attempt to show publicly to the entire community that you are disregarding its standards. Note that there isn't actually any "What you are doing is WRONG!" (that would be Fi), but rather just, "What you are doing violates the standards of our community"...which is Fe's very definition of "morally wrong."

 

[Fluffywolf]

Uhh no, seriously, Fe doesn't care about moral ideals. Fe's morality comes entirely from its community and will change if the community's moral opinion changes. Fe has NOTHING to do with arbitrary conceptions of morality about things like human rights; that is 100% Fi, no matter what you "consider" it to be.

Fe could potentially care about human rights but only as a function of its community group picking human rights as an important cause!

Remember, Fe's morals come from its surroundings, not from within.

I see you missed the joke in it though...

I meant that Fe is the type that goes about human rights, without actually being bothered what these rights should attain. Whereas Fi is interested in the details and construction of said rights. (Fe holding up a sign "Vote for human rights!", Fi holding up a sign "It is our right to 'insert x'")

 

[simulatedworld]

I see you missed the joke in it though...

I meant that Fe is the type that goes about human rights, without actually being bothered what these rights should attain. Whereas Fi is interested in the details and construction of said rights. (Fe holding up a sign "Vote for human rights!", Fi holding up a sign "It is our right to 'insert x'")

I see...that's a prettttttttty subtle joke then, isn't it?

 

[Fluffywolf]

Sorry..

< INTP

 

[LEVINA]

Fe usually needs to care for others because caring for others is almost universally considered an appropriate emotional response by the standards of just about every community in history. Fe reads and responds directly to the emotional sensibilities of others only insofar as community standards say it should--if an Fe user thinks you are behaving inappropriately, he will attempt to show publicly to the entire community that you are disregarding its standards. Note that there isn't actually any "What you are doing is WRONG!" (that would be Fi), but rather just, "What you are doing violates the standards of our community"...which is Fe's very definition of "morally wrong."

Wouldn't that be considering other people? I thought being Fe ment putting others (even if it sounds like they're being comformists) "first" when discussing the issues.

Just noticed the above post. LOL, /end arguement?

 

[simulatedworld]

Wouldn't that be considering other people? I thought being Fe ment putting others (even if it sounds like they're being comformists) "first" when discussing the issues.

Just noticed the above post. LOL, /end arguement?

No, that's just something that Fe users happen to do a lot because their community standard says they should.

Fe doesn't have any internally rigid set of morals; for Fe morality itself exists only in the external world as a function of its own group's moral standards. Group mentality is very important to Fe. Often Fe+Ni or Fe+Si will see morality purely as a means to an end and not an end unto itself (this is where it differs greatly from Fi.)

 

[thinkinjazz]

"Remember, Fe's morals come from its surroundings, not from within."


That is, somewhat unfortunately, very true.

"I meant that Fe is the type that goes about human rights, without actually being bothered what these rights should attain. Whereas Fi is interested in the details and construction of said rights. (Fe holding up a sign "Vote for human rights!", Fi holding up a sign "It is our right to 'insert x'")
"

That, too.

*stupid quote button doesn't want to work = 0

 

[Thalassa]

Wouldn't that be considering other people? I thought being Fe ment putting others (even if it sounds like they're being comformists) "first" when discussing the issues.

Just noticed the above post. LOL, /end arguement?

It might help if you didn't necessarily think of Fe always as putting others first, but rather as people who seek group harmony for their own ideal of harmony's sake, rather than for anyone's actual "highest good". That's why ugly forms of Fe are more manipulative than "caring."

At least that's how I see it. Fe users can actually be pretty nasty in a passive-aggressive way, and blatantly make it obvious that what they care about is say, for example but not as the ultimate goal...peace and quiet vs. anyone's actual happiness nor a satisfying conclusion for the other individuals involved. Fe can come across more as "why are you acting like that?" than "how may I help you?"

I'm not Fe bashing. I'm just trying to make you see it in a different light than simply (supposedly) wanting to "help other people."

 

[simulatedworld]

Fe can come across more as "why are you acting like that?"

Yes, but so can Fi so phrasing it this way doesn't really differentiate between the two.

The difference is really just that Fi's morality is internal and arbitrary and seeks to be as ethical as possible as an end unto itself; Fe's morality is external and changes with the group mentality, seeking to use morality as a means to complete external goals.

Both might say, "Why are you acting like that?"; the important thing is that Fi would base this upon an internally "objective" definition of morality according to its own private ideals, whereas Fe would say it in reference to the community etiquette standard. It's "Your behavior is inherently morally wrong" vs. "Your behavior violates our group's beliefs [and is therefore wrong]."

Subtle but important.

 

[Jaguar]

"Remember, Fe's morals come from its surroundings, not from within."

Fucking frightening.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Fucking frightening.

Imagine Fe on the loose with no secundary or tertiary cognative function to keep it in check.

Actually, don't imagine it. It will surely cause nightmares.

 

[Thalassa]

Fucking frightening.

I know. Seriously, it makes me think "Nazi party for the good of Germany!"

But of course that's an exaggerated example...

 

[simulatedworld]

Indeed, Hitler does seem most likely to have been ENFJ.

So it's scary how Fe in bad moral surroundings can become totally psychotic and abuse its gifts of emotional manipulation for sinister purposes, but at least it actually has some link to the outside world.

Unhealthy Fi can be just as scary, especially in an individual with poorly developed Ne/Se, because it has no link to information from the outside world and gets caught up in validating the objectivity of its own moral views...which will never, ever, ever change regardless of outside conditions!

That can be pretty scary at times too.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Yes, unhealthy Fi can cause seriously drifted away personalities.

 

[LEVINA]

I have no idea how to respond since the conversation has derailed from my intentional joke to extreme definitions. Not sure how to word it anymore so it doesn't sound so black and white. O_O?

 

[Fluffywolf]

You're an ENTP. You'll think of something.

 

[Thalassa]

Indeed, Hitler does seem most likely to have been ENFJ.

So it's scary how Fe in bad moral surroundings can become totally psychotic and abuse its gifts of emotional manipulation for sinister purposes, but at least it actually has some link to the outside world.

Unhealthy Fi can be just as scary, especially in an individual with poorly developed Ne/Se, because it has no link to information from the outside world and gets caught up in validating the objectivity of its own moral views...which will never, ever, ever change regardless of outside conditions!

That can be pretty scary at times too.

I think all functions can be scary under the right circumstances.

I do think there's already prejudice that Fi can be more "selfish" than Fe, when in fact they're capable of similar evil.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I think all functions can be scary under the right circumstances.

I do think there's already prejudice that Fi can be more "selfish" than Fe, when in fact they're capable of similar evil.

Similar evil aside. Fe does it for the people. Fi does it for the person.

 

[Thalassa]

Similar evil aside. Fe does it for the people. Fi does it for the person.

Not necessarily.

An ESFJ could use Fe manipulatively to her own ends, i.e. for the person.

An ENFP could use Fi for a cause they internally beleived in to help others, i.e. for the people.

And vice versa, but expressed differently.