MBTI - science or bullshit?

[Poki]

While the latter two are scientific, in that they seek to describe trends based on observation, they aren't science, due to the lack of theoretical prediction (trends aren't predictive, they're merely descriptive of past events) and reproducibility (you can't say an ENFP will react this way, every time stimulus X is applied).

Thats because people learn, we adapt, we grow. That and you must understand the stimlulus which means we have to understand the state of the person. Not everything is as it appears. I may steal a dollar today because I am hungry, but tomorrow I may have found a homeless shelter to feed me and dont need the dollar. What does this mean? The dollar is not really the stimulus it is a means to the stimulus. how do you know the tests to reproduce the reaction arent flawed?

 

[onemoretime]

Thats because people learn, we adapt, we grow. That and you must understand the stimlulus which means we have to understand the state of the person. Not everything is as it appears. I may steal a dollar today because I am hungry, but tomorrow I may have found a homeless shelter to feed me and dont need the dollar. What does this mean? The dollar is not really the stimulus it is a means to the stimulus. how do you know the tests to reproduce the reaction arent flawed?

Which is why psychology is not currently empirical science, which demands a consistently reproducible result given a set of variables. Since we haven't even quantified a large fraction of these variables yet, it's impossible to make predictive theories. We can only describe trends and hypothesize accordingly.

 

[ajblaise]

MBTI has been shown to have a good degree of construct validity, internal consistency, and test-retest reliability (though other studies might disagree). And considering that there aren't many personality assessment systems out there, I think it should get credit where credit is due.

Construct Validity of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator -- Thompson and Borrello 46 (3): 745 -- Educational and Psychological Measurement
Myers-Briggs Type Indicator Score Reliability Across: Studies a Meta-Analytic Reliability Generalization Study -- Capraro and Capraro 62 (4): 590 -- Educational and Psychological Measurement

 

[Mole]

Is the MBTI science, or is it bullshit?

This question is germane for MBTI is used extensively by the military and business but no psychology department in any university will touch it.

And since WW II MBTI has been enormously popular with the public.

Perhaps to understand this we need to understand the history of MBTI.

For the father of MBTI is Carl Jung. And he freely and enthusiastically supported the wrong side in WW II. He personally applied sexual therapy to his patients, but note, only to his female patients. And if he did this today he would be immediately struck off and would not be able to practise as a psychiatrist anywhere in the civilized world.

And on top of this two opportunists, Mrs Briggs and her daughter Mrs Myers, with no psychometric education or training whatsoever, invented a bogus personality test called MBTI.

And Mrs Briggs and her daughter Mrs Myers invented this test for the purpose of inducting women into the war effort. And as you know the military still use MBTI today to induct recruits for war. And business, seeing how useful it is to the military, adopted it to recruit staff for business.

However I would emphasise that every psychology department knows MBTI is bogus.

However MBTI is very appealing. It is appealing as astrology, and for the same reason. Both MBTI and astrology tell you what you want to hear. Both astrology and MBTI work on confirmation bias. Both are self validating. And how much we want to be validated.

But no matter how appealing and validating MBTI and astrology are, no astronomer believes in astrology and no psychometrician believes in MBTI.

But we all long to be validated so we believe.

 

[Nocapszy]

Sure they do; for instance, "red" is electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength of 650nm.

cognitive functions work identically.
they are an objective set of criteria [such wavelength] under which behavior is categorized.

the MBTI is, in itself, bullshit though.

 

[Jaguar]

MBTI is bullshit.

 

[Mole]

MBTI is bullshit.

May I disagree with you?

MBTI is a powerful movement used by the military and business since WW ii. And it is immensely popular with the public.

And with the rise of the mass universities since WW II, MBTI has become an kind of upmarket astrology.

But most of all MBTI is validating. It validates our wishes and desires. It is like a magic genie that no only acknowledges our wishes and desires but says they are true. MBTI is irresistible to the narcissistic. And we live in a narcissistic age, so no wonder MBTI is so popular.

Ah, if wishing only made it true.

However there is an alternative to MBTI, and that is we can stop arguing amongst ourselves and start to validate one another.

And this can be done safely over the internet.

So if anyone wants to learn how to safely validate one another over the internet, let me know.

Victor.

 

[Polaris]

"Science or BS?" doesn't even enter into the question for me. Science can only test a limited subset of all possible ideas (of which the MBTI is not one), and any given scientific theory is as subject to correction as a non-scientific theory. The key here is to remember that a theory in practice isn't a thing itself to be believed in or not; in use, a theory is only a system that sorts things into categories to allow you to make practical decisions. The judge of a theory isn't whether it's BS, therefore, so much as whether that theory proves useful and makes accurate predictions. For me, the MBTI is a fun and useful lens to view people through, and I use it freely, albeit with several corrections to suit my goals and experiences.

 

[Jaguar]

May I disagree with you?

No.

 

[ajblaise]

May I disagree with you?

MBTI is a powerful movement used by the military and business since WW ii. And it is immensely popular with the public.

And with the rise of the mass universities since WW II, MBTI has become an kind of upmarket astrology.

But most of all MBTI is validating. It validates our wishes and desires. It is like a magic genie that no only acknowledges our wishes and desires but says they are true. MBTI is irresistible to the narcissistic. And we live in a narcissistic age, so no wonder MBTI is so popular.

Ah, if wishing only made it true.

However there is an alternative to MBTI, and that is we can stop arguing amongst ourselves and start to validate one another.

And this can be done safely over the internet.

So if anyone wants to learn how to safely validate one another over the internet, let me know.

Victor.

What percent of the public (in the Western world) do you think knows about MBTI?

 

[Mole]

whether that theory proves useful and makes accurate predictions.

Neither MBTI nor astrology make accurate predictions. What they do is play on our wishes and desires.

 

[Salomé]

So if anyone wants to learn how to safely validate one another over the internet, let me know.

I do.

 

[Mole]

What percent of the public (in the Western world) do you think knows about MBTI?

Well, the military know, and business knows, and psychology departments know.

And it's been popular with the public since WW II.

It listens to our wishes and desires and never contradicts them, quite unlike reality.

Let's face it - our wishes and desires are dearer to us than reality can ever be.

Bless our cotton socks.

 

[Mole]

I do.

OK, I've been here before. So I don't want to waste my time if you are not really interested.

If you are interested I can tell you how we can learn to safely validate one another.

And also I would ask for a limited commitment of time.

So if you are more than just curious and are prepared to make a limited commitment of time, I will proceed.

Victor.

 

[ajblaise]

Well, the military know, and business knows, and psychology departments know.

And it's been popular with the public since WW II.

It listens to our wishes and desires and never contradicts them, quite unlike reality.

Let's face it - our wishes and desires are dearer to us than reality can ever be.

Bless our cotton socks.

1% of the public? 2% maybe?

 

[Nonsensical]

1% of the public? 2% maybe?

I have never met anyone who knows about MBTI. The only people I know in real life who know about it is my family, and 3 friends whom I introduced it to.

2% at most.

 

[Salomé]

OK, I've been here before. So I don't want to waste my time if you are not really interested.

If you are interested I can tell you how we can learn to safely validate one another.

And also I would ask for a limited commitment of time.

So if you are more than just curious and are prepared to make a limited commitment of time, I will proceed.

Victor.

I'm supposed to commit before I know what I'm commiting to?

Do I get a yaucht too?

 

[Polaris]

Neither MBTI nor astrology make accurate predictions. What they do is play on our wishes and desires.

The main desire the MBTI plays on is just to help us make sense of things and empower us. That's all any theory really wants to do. Aside from that, there are a lot self-congratulatory type descriptions, definitely, and these are bound to draw people in. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, though. We're always trying to find empowering identities, things that we can see ourselves in and use as focal devices to draw out our virtues and develop a sense of self. Sometimes this can be a self-fulfilling prophecy in the sense that we identify so much with a profile that we actually become that profile. And that can be useful, especially when you have profiles, like those in the MBTI, that come packaged with ideas for growth and improvement. There are risks involved, yes, but that goes for any system that categorizes people and things.

 

[redacted]

Neither MBTI nor astrology make accurate predictions. What they do is play on our wishes and desires.

Making predictions with MBTI is indeed bullshit. Using MBTI as a descriptive tool, and then making predictions based on the traits you've narrowed in on (and hopefully others) isn't necessarily bullshit.

For example, if you meet person X and know a bit about MBTI, it may help you think about person X to use the MBTI framework. You might be quicker to notice something like, "oh, person X seems to place great importance on concepts like 'right' and 'wrong'". Since you've realized that, you may be able to make inferences about their future actions more quickly than you would without MBTI.

Same goes for astrology, I guess.

But most people seem to make all sorts of wacky inferences with MBTI (just look at all the threads on this site!), and in that sense, it may do more overall harm than good. But it's all a matter of how you apply it.

 

[Mole]

I'm supposed to commit before I know what I'm commiting to?

Do I get a yaucht too?

Now, now Bluemonday, I want to make sure this is not an idle request on your part.

For if you decide to proceed, you will be required to make a commitment of time.

I'm not frivolous and I don't expect you to be either.

Victor.