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  1. #41
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I actually think I'd put a lot of INTP's I know above the ISTJ's I know in a list of most close-minded and rigid people I've met. After all, they're so much smarter than everyone else aren't they, so surely whatever they say is bound to be more right than anything we humble mortals can say or think?

    I mean, I've seen INTP's on here argue very close-minded attitudes against for example, homosexuality, transsexualism etc., whilst my mother the straight-laced ESFJ will join her colleague on a gay pride march without blinking an eye. And the ISTJ I know almost always apologises and admits his faults if you point out that he's been rude or insensitive, whereas many INTP's will argue to the death that they shouldn't HAVE to be sensitive and that social conventions are stupid so it's your problem if you saw their behaviour as rude, and that their rudeness was only in your mind etc etc... yawn!!

    Maybe it's because I've spent a lot of my life around J's, with mostly positive results, that I don't share this 'P' prejudice against J's.
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  2. #42
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Closure in deciding matters is not related to open mindness. If the person takes into account multiple perspectives before coming to a decision, he/she is open minded - as much as people that do not take any decision before having considered all the options (again, it seems to be valid the old adagio that not taking any decision is a decision in itself).

  3. #43
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    ...is the way they act as though Ps have a monopoly on open-mindedness simply because their perceiving function is extraverted.

    As absurd as you find we Js' penchant for trying to impose order upon the chaos that is reality, we find your penchant for trying to impose order upon the chaos that is the mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I actually think I'd put a lot of INTP's I know above the ISTJ's I know in a list of most close-minded and rigid people I've met. After all, they're so much smarter than everyone else aren't they, so surely whatever they say is bound to be more right than anything we humble mortals can say or think?

    I mean, I've seen INTP's on here argue very close-minded attitudes against for example, homosexuality, transsexualism etc., whilst my mother the straight-laced ESFJ will join her colleague on a gay pride march without blinking an eye. And the ISTJ I know almost always apologises and admits his faults if you point out that he's been rude or insensitive, whereas many INTP's will argue to the death that they shouldn't HAVE to be sensitive and that social conventions are stupid so it's your problem if you saw their behaviour as rude, and that their rudeness was only in your mind etc etc... yawn!!

    Maybe it's because I've spent a lot of my life around J's, with mostly positive results, that I don't share this 'P' prejudice against J's.

    I have to say I know a few INTP's and they can definately be closedminded at times. I won't repeat what subsitute said but in my experience I've seen this to be very true.

    It always amuses me how P's cling to the notion that P's have the monopoly on creativity, open mindedness and such. I think alot of the times their "open mindedness" simply allows them to do what they want to do no matter if it's the best thing for them do to...or the best thing for the people around them. Lot's of times it simply comes off as selfishness disguised as something more acceptable.

    (don't get me wrong...I love me some P's just it never seems to penetrate their skulls that they are not the end all and be all of types...specially those NP's.
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

  4. #44
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    This is what has always mystified me about INFJs. We INXJs both see things from a variety of angles. Since Te is my secondary function, I don't feel any particular need to assign values to these angles; I simply take them in as "data" to be used or discarded later. INFJs, however, with secondary Fe feel compelled (I would imagine) to valuate. I would think the pull between seeing a plethora of angles and the compulsion to valuate them would make you guys (and gals) nuts!
    It is possible to 'valuate' on a sliding scale. It doesn't have to be black-and-white. As i think about it, value systems don't inherently require absolutes, do they? They are often joined to absolutes, but there are other processes in place to create that result. When you trace values back to their core principles, then they become very abstract, so that the manner in which they are applied concretely becomes fluid, always adapting, never perfect, always variable.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Closure in deciding matters is not related to open mindness. If the person takes into account multiple perspectives before coming to a decision, he/she is open minded - as much as people that do not take any decision before having considered all the options (again, it seems to be valid the old adagio that not taking any decision is a decision in itself).
    Good point.

    I also find that it can require a degree of trust and openness to be willing to go with a 'best possible' course of action, even when you know full well there is no way to know with all certainty. A strongly iNtuitive J will be constantly viewing all angles and yet willing to choose a course of action. Refusal to do this could be an example of being 'closed'. And i agree that non-committal thinking can be very stubborn indeed.
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  5. #45
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    This is not acceptable. Let's create a support group to defend the J's interests and the fact that we're open minded. There have been years of oppression from P's for being considered close minded. We J's are just as open minded as P's. I demand equal share in the open minded realm.

    We need a support group for T's. We T's have just as many feelings inside. In fact, our feelings are more intense because we're not used to them so when they happen they are stronger. Really. It doesn't matter if you can't observe it, it's all in the fuctions.

    And what about that horrendous stereotype that E's are extraverted? Nonsense! We E's are just as introverted in the inside and it annoys me that I's think they're the only introverted. In fact, inside we are more introverted than introverts. It's all a question of functions. Use your intuition! Gosh.

  6. #46
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    This is not acceptable. Let's create a support group to defend the J's interests and the fact that we're open minded. There have been years of oppression from P's for being considered close minded. We J's are just as open minded as P's. I demand equal share in the open minded realm.

    We need a support group for T's. We T's have just as many feelings inside. In fact, our feelings are more intense because we're not used to them so when they happen they are stronger. Really. It doesn't matter if you can't observe it, it's all in the fuctions.

    And what about that horrendous stereotype that E's are extraverted? Nonsense! We E's are just as introverted in the inside and it annoys me that I's think they're the only introverted. In fact, inside we are more introverted than introverts. It's all a question of functions. Use your intuition! Gosh.
    "Nowadays, everybody's gotta go to shrinks, and counselors, and go on 'Sally Jessy Raphael' and talk about their problems. What happened to Gary Cooper? The strong, silent type."
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  7. #47
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    This is not acceptable. Let's create a support group to defend the P's interests and the fact that we're close-minded. There have been years of oppression from J's for being considered open-minded. We P's are just as closed-minded as J's. I demand equal share in the close-minded realm!!

    And what about that horrendous stereotype that I's are introverted? Nonsense! We I's are just as extroverted in the outside and it annoys me that E's think they're the only extroverted. In fact, outside we are more extroverted than extroverts. It's all a question of functions. Use your sensing! jeepers!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  8. #48
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    This is not acceptable. ...


    An elderly monk once gave me a dose of humility when it comes to being open minded...

    Me: But don't you think we should all try to be more open minded?
    Monk: Well yes, of course, it's good to keep your mind open. But for God's sake there's no need to have it open at both ends.
    Me:
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  9. #49
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I actually think I'd put a lot of INTP's I know above the ISTJ's I know in a list of most close-minded and rigid people I've met. After all, they're so much smarter than everyone else aren't they, so surely whatever they say is bound to be more right than anything we humble mortals can say or think?

    I mean, I've seen INTP's on here argue very close-minded attitudes against for example, homosexuality, transsexualism etc., whilst my mother the straight-laced ESFJ will join her colleague on a gay pride march without blinking an eye. And the ISTJ I know almost always apologises and admits his faults if you point out that he's been rude or insensitive, whereas many INTP's will argue to the death that they shouldn't HAVE to be sensitive and that social conventions are stupid so it's your problem if you saw their behaviour as rude, and that their rudeness was only in your mind etc etc... yawn!!...
    I have also experienced this with INTPs. I will have to agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    This is not acceptable. Let's create a support group to defend the J's interests and the fact that we're open minded. There have been years of oppression from P's for being considered close minded. We J's are just as open minded as P's. I demand equal share in the open minded realm.

    We need a support group for T's. We T's have just as many feelings inside. In fact, our feelings are more intense because we're not used to them so when they happen they are stronger. Really. It doesn't matter if you can't observe it, it's all in the functions.

    And what about that horrendous stereotype that E's are extraverted? Nonsense! We E's are just as introverted in the inside and it annoys me that I's think they're the only introverted. In fact, inside we are more introverted than introverts. It's all a question of functions. Use your intuition! Gosh.
    tee-hee
    I love good-humored sarcasm.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...Monk: Well yes, of course, it's good to keep your mind open. But for God's sake there's no need to have it open at both ends....
    LOL! I love that!
    Last edited by MacGuffin; 10-13-2007 at 10:34 PM. Reason: merged posts

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I mean, I've seen INTP's on here argue very close-minded attitudes against for example, homosexuality, transsexualism etc., whilst my mother the straight-laced ESFJ will join her colleague on a gay pride march without blinking an eye. And the ISTJ I know almost always apologises and admits his faults if you point out that he's been rude or insensitive, whereas many INTP's will argue to the death that they shouldn't HAVE to be sensitive and that social conventions are stupid so it's your problem if you saw their behaviour as rude, and that their rudeness was only in your mind etc etc... yawn!!
    I've been surrounded by ISTJs for years.

    I dub thee crazy!!

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