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  1. #21
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    ...I once told a P on another forum that she should treat other people decently on the forum and not publicly point out their mistakes because I felt that we should be kind to each other so we could have a better, friendlier, and more inviting community.
    I could very well have written a similar PM.

    I remember the PM I got from her saying that I wasn't "enlightened" enough to understand the freedom of the internet and I had no right to try to "impose" my values on her or anyone else.
    Oh really!

    That of course got me angry because she had no right telling me how I should think when I was just trying to keep everyone's feelings from getting hurt.
    I would have been angry, too (and intimidated)

    All of that was from me just saying, "Hey, let's all be nice to one another."
    What's the matter with people anyway?

    Since then I've noticed a repeating pattern of that same attitude with a lot of other Ps. As long as they don't come around telling me how to think, I don't tell them how they should treat other people, and we have gotten along just fine.
    Thanks for the heads up.

  2. #22
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It was a large eye-opener to me when things finally "clicked" in my head and I realized that the closure J's search for on the surface doesn't mean internally that you are closure-oriented at all... and in fact you are more "open" than P's in general that way.

    When I was younger, people seemed more WYSIWYG... but it's not that way at all in terms of the J/P divide. Closure on the surface usually mean far more openness beneath than I had ever realized.

    It also helped explain why I felt so whimsical and casual outwardly, but inwardly I often felt very critical and rigid... always having to weigh and judge things.
    That's good to know. I am always afraid of being too closed-minded because I have read that's what INTJ's do, but I didn't know that P's do it, too.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    You know, that bugs me, too. It seems everywhere I go, and in the media too, the xxxPs are commenting on us xxxJs, saying that we're rigid and inflexible because our perceiving function is introverted. I mean, just the other day, I was walking along, carefully to make sure I did not stand on any of the cracks in the sidewalk, when a young child began laughing at me, and called out to his friends to come and see this introverted perceiver. I felt like an animal in a zoo, and quite horrible for it. It is simply not an acceptable way to treat another, even with an ailment such as introverted perceiving.
    Are you an INTP or an ESFJ? I'm confused now.

    This internal vs. external order thing is also rather confusing.

    I work towards being less confused. (Wanting internal order?)

    I find so-called external order (which, for simplicity, I'll call "organization"), largely arbritrary. Think about the number of ways people like to organize things. Things can't be organized all those ways at the same time.

    However, all the different ways people can become less confused can all be implemented at the same time.

    Also,I do the thing where I don't step on cracks from a lot even now. Though this is not one of the things I get ridiculed for.

    Am I missing sarcasm in your post?

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    ...is the way they act as though they have a monopoly on open-mindedness simply because their perceiving function is extraverted.

    As absurd as you find we Js' penchant for trying to impose order upon the chaos that is reality, we find your penchant for trying to impose order upon the chaos that is the mind.
    Let me get this straight, you're taking away the one thing P's have? Without open mindedness they're just lazy bastards, who don't get anything done. Let's all just be J's then

    I actually have to say that, the descriptions and my own experience support P's being more open minded, in the traditional sense.

    Open mindedness is a subjective thing though, most "open minded" people are very closed minded about closed mindedness, it can be a very good thing. As a result, I think some J's take the closed mindedness the wrong way. Another way of saying it would be decisiveness.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    You know, that bugs me, too. It seems everywhere I go, and in the media too, the xxxPs are commenting on us xxxJs, saying that we're rigid and inflexible because our perceiving function is introverted. I mean, just the other day, I was walking along, carefully to make sure I did not stand on any of the cracks in the sidewalk, when a young child began laughing at me, and called out to his friends to come and see this introverted perceiver. I felt like an animal in a zoo, and quite horrible for it. It is simply not an acceptable way to treat another, even with an ailment such as introverted perceiving.

  5. #25
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    *mumbles* Some NTPs I know are very very resistant to new "random" ideas. That the T in them dismisses my seemingly illogical thinking far too quickly. The NTJs are at least willing to humor my attempt of unscrambling thoughts in my head to get out what I wanted to say. I'm not saying that's true for all xNTPs... certainly I don't know that many NFPs to comment on them.

  6. #26
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    ...is the way they act as though they have a monopoly on open-mindedness simply because their perceiving function is extraverted.

    As absurd as you find we Js' penchant for trying to impose order upon the chaos that is reality, we find your penchant for trying to impose order upon the chaos that is the mind.
    You come across as a J to people and most J's are SJ's, which are not known for open-mindedness. INxJ's are as open-minded as they come, but some people are going to lump them in with the other J's no matter what. It just comes with the territory. Likewise ENxP's are not really like other extraverts, but some people are going to lump us together no matter what. It comes with the territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne
    You know, that bugs me, too. It seems everywhere I go, and in the media too, the xxxPs are commenting on us xxxJs, saying that we're rigid and inflexible because our perceiving function is introverted. I mean, just the other day, I was walking along, carefully to make sure I did not stand on any of the cracks in the sidewalk, when a young child began laughing at me, and called out to his friends to come and see this introverted perceiver. I felt like an animal in a zoo, and quite horrible for it. It is simply not an acceptable way to treat another, even with an ailment such as introverted perceiving.
    Hey I saw that. The kid said, "Hey gang look! This INTP thinks he's an ESFJ." Then they danced around you in a circle while pointing and chanting, "Nocturne is a stinker! Introverted Thinker!"

    Kids can be so cruel.
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  7. #27
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    Both Js and us Ps can be close-minded, just in different ways. IMO, In Ps, since we have introverted judgment, close-mindedness comes from rejecting something because it doesn't fit the internal, highly-organized belief system created by Ti or Fi. In Js close-mindedness comes from using Te or Fe to make judgments based on information from Si or Ni too quickly and too uncritically.
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  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    ...Likewise ENxP's are not really like other extraverts, but some people are going to lump us together no matter what...
    Since any subgroup of extroverts can say they are not like "other extroverts," then what exactly does a real extrovert look like?
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  9. #29
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yeah. I sometimes think the motivation for outward closure is a convenience of sorts. If things are decided, you don't have to be preoccupied with them. Your mind is more free to think about other things.
    Yes, precisely.

    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    One thing that is particularly frustrating to me is when I can see that someone else sees something differently than I do and I either can see their perspective, but don't want to, or recognize that they have a valid perspective that differs from mine, yet no matter how much I try I cannot see it clearly enough to really grasp it.
    This is what has always mystified me about INFJs. We INXJs both see things from a variety of angles. Since Te is my secondary function, I don't feel any particular need to assign values to these angles; I simply take them in as "data" to be used or discarded later. INFJs, however, with secondary Fe feel compelled (I would imagine) to valuate. I would think the pull between seeing a plethora of angles and the compulsion to valuate them would make you guys (and gals) nuts!
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  10. #30
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Since any subgroup of extroverts can say they are not like "other extroverts," then what exactly does a real extrovert look like?
    This is a question I've asked myself. I read all the other Es say they're introverted extroverts or some such other reply, and I'm confused. It's like a competition to be the least extroverted extrovert. You already know how I feel about the "rich inner world" that extroverts supposedly lack. Maybe there's a problem in the definitions and descriptions which is why people respond this way.
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