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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I had not heard it from the other perspective before so I can see where the strife might be. It's just when I see someone doing something like taking it upon themselves to repeatedly poke fun at newbs for little mistakes I also feel a little bristled inside and some part of me clicks on and I instantly want there to be an understanding that that behavior could be considered "not nice".
    Yes, I do agree with you (generalizing out from your comment) that "context" is what really is the determining factor.

    In this case, a repeated pattern of hazing newcomers is bad for the forum and, especially depending on the general reaction of the newcomers to it, might really not be "nice," so I'd be more inclined to say something.

    (If a lot of newcomers aren't staying, then there seems to be grounds to intervene.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I had not heard it from the other perspective before so I can see where the strife might be. It's just when I see someone doing something like taking it upon themselves to repeatedly poke fun at newbs for little mistakes I also feel a little bristled inside and some part of me clicks on and I instantly want there to be an understanding that that behavior could be considered "not nice".
    I feel the same way and I'm not going to say I haven't chastened someone for what I think is inappropriate behavior. That may look like I'm being a humorless, stick-up-the-ass J, but I'd do it for anyone that I thought was being mistreated.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  3. #13
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, I do agree with you (generalizing out from your comment) that "context" is what really is the determining factor.

    In this case, a repeated pattern of hazing newcomers is bad for the forum and, especially depending on the general reaction of the newcomers to it, might really not be "nice," so I'd be more inclined to say something.

    (If a lot of newcomers aren't staying, then there seems to be grounds to intervene.)
    Well to me it wouldn't matter so much if the newcomers were staying or not, or even if they took as much offense as I did. My instinct would be to make the situation as harmonious as possible and hazing of any sort just sits wrong with me. For that reason I have to be very careful to only speak within the context. Otherwise, my best intentions will usually backfire on me. I often feel bad for people who choose to speak out at the wrong times because even though they are often voicing my own thoughts, I know that there will be a backlash for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I feel the same way and I'm not going to say I haven't chastened someone for what I think is inappropriate behavior. That may look like I'm being a humorless, stick-up-the-ass J, but I'd do it for anyone that I thought was being mistreated.

  4. #14
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    ...is the way they act as though they have a monopoly on open-mindedness simply because their perceiving function is extraverted.
    You know, that bugs me, too. It seems everywhere I go, and in the media too, the xxxPs are commenting on us xxxJs, saying that we're rigid and inflexible because our perceiving function is introverted. I mean, just the other day, I was walking along, carefully to make sure I did not stand on any of the cracks in the sidewalk, when a young child began laughing at me, and called out to his friends to come and see this introverted perceiver. I felt like an animal in a zoo, and quite horrible for it. It is simply not an acceptable way to treat another, even with an ailment such as introverted perceiving.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  5. #15
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    ...is the way they act as though they have a monopoly on open-mindedness simply because their perceiving function is extraverted.
    I have been similarly irritated by this attitude. Particularly in an IXXP, the dominant function, the function that is core to their experience, is a judging function. In an IXXJ, the dominant function, the function that is core to their experience, is a perceiving function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    It also helped explain why I felt so whimsical and casual outwardly, but inwardly I often felt very critical and rigid... always having to weigh and judge things.
    When you think about the functions, that fits perfectly. The introverted, but core function is a judging function. The extroverted function shown to the world is perceiving, but it is secondary to the core judging function. Others may judge personality based on the function extraverted, but that perceiving function would be a secondary experience for an IXXP supporting the primary judging function experience.

    It is precisely the opposite for an IXXJ type.

    It does seem frustrating to me that someone's core character is-ironically-judged to be judgemental and close-minded based on the extraverted secondary judging function they interact with the world on, when the dominant way they experience the world, though hidden from view, is through a perceiving function.

    Now that would not be the case for ExxP's and ExxJ's because they will extravert their dominant function and so there would not be that confusion between how they present and how they primarily experience.

    This I/E twist making it even more nonsensical to me when people are split up based on J or P, assuming the same generic personality experience for all J's and all P's, regardless of the other letters of the type. I just find the whole thing irritating.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe
    Yeah. I sometimes think the motivation for outward closure is a convenience of sorts. If things are decided, you don't have to be preoccupied with them. Your mind is more free to think about other things.
    yep. I get overwhelmed easily.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Well to me it wouldn't matter so much if the newcomers were staying or not, or even if they took as much offense as I did. My instinct would be to make the situation as harmonious as possible and hazing of any sort just sits wrong with me. For that reason I have to be very careful to only speak within the context. Otherwise, my best intentions will usually backfire on me. I often feel bad for people who choose to speak out at the wrong times because even though they are often voicing my own thoughts, I know that there will be a backlash for them.
    *nod*

    I really do understand.

    I hate bringing INTPc into this as a "case in point," but in a situation like that forum, what can come across as hazing or unkindness for one sort of person is taken quite in stride by both the hazers and the initiates (depending on their personality, mostly). What one person sees as a more serious slur is taken as a joke or indifferently by another.

    [It's rather like a group of people laughing and playing and having a good raucous time, and no one seems to dislike what is happening; and suddenly someone shows up who starts trying to tell people to be nice and control people's behavior, when no one had voiced that they thought something mean was happening. It is partly an autonomy thing: One side is trying to protect members of the group through the social interaction, the other side is expecting people to take responsibility for themselves and speak up if they have a problem and otherwise not tell other people what to do.]

    The difference in perception and instinct between INTP and non-INTP members is what partially led to the creation of THIS forum in May. Many non-INTPs were offended by things that were not offensive to most of the INTPs... which led to a situation where truly offensive behavior grew out of control as the rift deepened between the polarized groups.

    It is hard for members of a diverse group to coexist in situations where normal behavior for one is offensive to another and vice-versa. Usually both sides have to ease up a bit.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Or, people could be pretending that they enjoy the questionable behavior, the ones perpetuating the behaviors may truly be malicious and the way to stop anyone from complaining about the "good fun" they tell you you have no sense of humor. A nice way of silencing any complaints.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    When you think about the functions, that fits perfectly. The introverted, but core function is a judging function. The extroverted function shown to the world is perceiving, but it is secondary to the core judging function. Others may judge personality based on the function extraverted, but that perceiving function would be a secondary experience for an IXXP supporting the primary judging function experience. It is precisely the opposite for an IXXJ type.
    Mmm hmmm. And I am *really* trying to wrap my head around that, to truly understand your experience as an IxxJ... but I cannot seem to quite "get my feet into your shoes" so to speak.

    So going into a situation... do you find yourself judgmental internally at all? Or do you feel very open to all viewpoints and find it easy to empathize or see their view?

    What I find is that I see my judgments inside as "writeable" and are updated as soon as I see a mistake, but I am always comparing what someone tells me to what I have calculated to be true and "testing" it.

    (That is one thing I do not like about myself, about being an INP, I mean -- I wish I could just listen to someone or something WITHOUT having to evaluate it inside and determine its "truthfulness/accuracy." So on the surface I try so hard to be open and empathetic, but inside sometimes I feel so bent out of shape because I feel like what they are saying is not aligned with truth as my self-correcting model of the world describes it, and so they need to be corrected -- and the conflict between being open to new ideas and judging them simultaneously can sometimes tear me apart.)

    It does seem frustrating to me that someone's core character is-ironically-judged to be judgmental and close-minded based on the extraverted secondary judging function they interact with the world on, when the dominant way they experience the world, though hidden from view, is through a perceiving function.
    I can imagine how frustrating it would be, to feel misreprented/misinterpreted.

    I do understand why it happens, as you continue to describe:

    1. Extroverts *do* represent their primary function outwardly, so what you see is what you get with them. Introverts are assumed to fit the same pattern.

    2. People do not have enough experience with IJs and IPs to realize what is going on under the surface. They are just used to reacting to the surface interaction.

    This I/E twist making it even more nonsensical to me when people are split up based on J or P, assuming the same generic personality experience for all J's and all P's, regardless of the other letters of the type. I just find the whole thing irritating.
    Well, it does seem predictive and/or describes behavior well enough. It doesn't bother me that much, in fact it rather interests me because it means people are not always what they seem... and I love mysteries.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Or, people could be pretending that they enjoy the questionable behavior, the ones perpetuating the behaviors may truly be malicious and the way to stop anyone from complaining about the "good fun" they tell you you have no sense of humor. A nice way of silencing any complaints.
    Yup, you're right.

    The situation needs to be examined in context, to see how much needs fixed.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #19
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    So going into a situation... do you find yourself judgmental internally at all? Or do you feel very open to all viewpoints and find it easy to empathize or see their view?
    Both.

    My sense of my internal experience is one of both general awareness of many contrasting perspectives that I often notice at least by external observation other people seem not to see, but also a critical analysis of what I'm taking in. I engage in a judgement of both how I assess the information coming in and also of my own perceptual limitations to assessing what I'm taking in.

    One thing that is particularly frustrating to me is when I can see that someone else sees something differently than I do and I either can see their perspective, but don't want to, or recognize that they have a valid perspective that differs from mine, yet no matter how much I try I cannot see it clearly enough to really grasp it. As best I have been able to understand myself, this difficulty is either because something about it threatens me and I struggle to get past a conscious protective rejection of it, or because at a deeper unconscious level something in me blocks me from truly grasping it as I sense if I did grasp it some core way of being for me would be threatened. Because it is my value to want to see things in as broad and as comprehensive a way as possible, I feel embarrassed, frustrated and disappointed in myself when I can't see or feel completely another point of view. I feel the same when I have allowed myself to slip into the arrogance of thinking I see clearly only to be made aware in a way I can't deny that I was mistaken and my vision was in fact, as I should have known all along, incomplete.

    In re-reading that, I think that experience probably does reflect the reality that I have, as everyone does according to MBTI theory, both a judging and perceiving function as my top two functions, but seems to reflect the particular bent of a dominant introverted intuitive perception and secondary extraverted feeling judgement and how they might interplay.

    I would expect that others would likely feel both judgement and open perception in most situations, but the difference would be in how the particular nature of each function and the degree of dominance would interplay in them.

    Also not to be dismissed is the issue that there seems to be much affecting how a person interacts with the world aside from their MBTI type, like life experience and development of lesser functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Well, it does seem predictive and/or describes behavior well enough.
    The J/P distinction can be somewhat predictive of external behavior, perhaps, but not necessarily of the dominant core personality experience, nor of the unique expression of all the different non-MBTI related aspects of an individual.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  10. #20
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    One more thing to consider in evaluating my experience as an infj is that I often test infp. In cognitive process use, I test equally strong if not more strong in Ne and Fi use. So my experience may not be typical for infj's.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

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