Grinding Gears on the Road to Extraversion

[wolfy]

I find this page on the Lenore Thomson wiki intriguing. Shallowness

Please share your thoughts.

The extraverted path for introverts

When introverts find themselves irrelevant, dissatisfied, powerless, and feeling like there's no hope of resolving some impasse in life, the basic Lenorean thesis would suggest that they try consciously cultivating shallowness. The words "introversion" and "extraversion" have come to mean "personality types" in popular usage, and are hard to understand even in Lenore's writing. A clearer formulation might simply be: depth and shallowness.

To cultivate shallowness, go after social status. Learn what triggers people to thoughtlessly obey or pay attention, and exploit it. Learn what is popular and imitate it so you can be popular, too. Experiment with superficiality: Don't Just be Yourself. This will feel like you're selling out. But it won't be, because your basic alignment with what really, inalterably matters will still be there. The power you gain, you'll use for genuine good. The difference will be that you'll accept that other people will not be responding with total understanding or appreciation of what you're doing and why. You'll be aware that they are responding for rather simplistic reasons. You'll play along with that part of the world knowingly instead of helplessly. You'll know that you can't control this part of things, you can only do your best in the face of it. Ultimately, you'll discover that you've been a part of this all along. You'll gain true awareness of your place in the greater world.

This is a bit of a life theme for some introverts I guess. My mind used grind with the thought. Now, not so much.

And a Pearl Jam video for good measure.
Wishlist

 

[wolfy]

Is it possible to pull off the above without becoming cynical? A little bit of cynicism is part of the deal I guess...

Here's another song while I'm at it...
Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues Again

 

[VagrantFarce]

"Cultivating shallowness" is a silly way of putting it imo; I see it more as "cultivating breadth", opening up to how things present themselves around you and truely participating in it rather than curling up inside yourself.

 

[wolfy]

"Cultivating shallowness" is a silly way of putting it imo; I see it more as "cultivating breadth", opening up to how things present themselves around you and truely participating in it rather than curling up inside yourself.

I like the way you put it. Cultivating shallowness does seem to block you from really embracing the idea. I guess what the author is trying to get across is it can feel like shallowness to an introvert. Cultivating breadth is better or maybe effectiveness in the world. Like you said opening up instead of turning in.

 

[poppy]

I don't know if I agree with that passage or not, but I did think it was pretty funny.

On the occasions where I've extroverted myself I never felt like I had any kind of moral issue with it, I wasn't being untrue to myself, I was simply putting myself out there. It's an unfamiliar mode of operation, but not one that requires any fundamental change.

EDIT: Or maybe I've become such a cynic that I don't even recognize it

 

[Particle]

I don't know if I agree with that passage or not, but I did think it was pretty funny.

My thoughts precisely, although now I come to think about it, it really depends on the situation...meaning I don't necessarily get a ..uh..guilty conscience when I'm in extrovert mode. I think it only happens when I'm extroverted because other people want me to be...

 

[wolfy]

I think it's more about ambivalence than guilt. Ambivalence and cynicism.

 

[poppy]

I think it's more about ambivalence than guilt. Ambivalence and cynicism.

Ambivalence and cynicism? What a downer

 

[Particle]

I think it's more about ambivalence than guilt. Ambivalence and cynicism.

Ha! Nicely put, I knew guilty conscience wasn't the right way to put it, but I couldn't come up with something better.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

"Cultivating shallowness" is a silly way of putting it imo; I see it more as "cultivating breadth", opening up to how things present themselves around you and truely participating in it rather than curling up inside yourself.

Something kind of funny about this is that, whenever I’ve thought of it strictly in terms of building ‘breadth’, it’s made little or no sense to me. I mean- I’d been able to recognize it as ‘breadth’, been able to recognize 'breadth' in other people, but I tend to dismiss the sentiment that I might actually be able to work on expanding my own ‘breadth’ because I didn’t even begin to recognize anything that even resembled the capacity of ‘breadth’ in myself in the first place. (I’m ridiculously introverted.)

To cultivate shallowness, go after social status. Learn what triggers people to thoughtlessly obey or pay attention, and exploit it. Learn what is popular and imitate it so you can be popular, too. Experiment with superficiality: Don't Just be Yourself. This will feel like you're selling out. But it won't be, because your basic alignment with what really, inalterably matters will still be there.

This helps me to recognize that ‘breadth’ in myself. I can’t tap into something if I can’t figure out what I’m supposed to be tapping into- but putting it in these terms is actually quite helpful to me, and makes ‘cultivating breadth’ seem like a much more reasonable and attainable goal.

 

[VagrantFarce]

Really, the key to extravertedness is to throw yourself into an extraverted situation and force yourself to stop second-guessing yourself; it all happens a lot more naturally than one might assume, and it's silly to think that there's some sort of "method" to the madness.

 

[wolfy]

Really, the key to extravertedness is to throw yourself into an extraverted situation and force yourself to stop second-guessing yourself; it all happens a lot more naturally than one might assume, and it's silly to think that there's some sort of "method" to the madness.

That's true. I was going to talk about how I stopped second guessing myself but I can't remember how I did it. Living in Japan was one thing I can think of.

There is another point brought up in the quote though. That is, a person being measured extrinsically. People being measured extrinsically creates a rift in some peoples minds. And playing to that feels not real in some way. I think the advice given in the quote that you are acting from a base of yourself is pretty solid advice.


Bob Dylan - It's Alright Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Really, the key to extravertedness is to throw yourself into an extraverted situation and force yourself to stop second-guessing yourself; it all happens a lot more naturally than one might assume, and it's silly to think that there's some sort of "method" to the madness.

I disagree. For the most part, I avoid small talk because it’s just taxing to me. I’ve avoided it for as long as I can remember. Somewhere in there I forgot how to even participate. And on top of that, I’ve built up a kind of disdain for it because when people meet me they want to engage me in it and I’ve developed an irrational aversion.

Now- being an very introverted person- I’ve learned that I need to set some time beforehand to ‘practice’ conversation in my head before I go any event in which I expect to deal with a lot of people. If I don’t do this, I’ve found it’s exponentially harder for me to participate in conversation. I invariably end up spending the entire evening (or afternoon, whatever) just listening or spitting out ‘word salad’ at people. I need to warm the engine up or it just keeps stalling for the entirety of the event.

The point: when I ‘practice’ in my head, I’m in the habit of ‘practicing’ conversation that I personally find interesting. This is where the “method to the madness” comes in. It had really never occurred to me to ‘practice’ the kind of small talk that I personally find inane, if only because I’d developed such an aversion. I hadn’t ‘practiced’ that kind of small talk in my head pry since junior high school- which was over 20 years ago. It wasn’t until I read that bit in the OP (or, at least something very similar, I don’t remember where/when I saw it first) that I figured out how to work on ‘breadth’.

I mean, I think there’s something brilliant about putting it into terms fit for a 13 year old kid, because I think that’s where ‘breadth’ and I started parting ways:

To cultivate shallowness, go after social status. Learn what triggers people to thoughtlessly obey or pay attention, and exploit it. Learn what is popular and imitate it so you can be popular, too. Experiment with superficiality: Don't Just be Yourself.

And there are probably quite a few introverts with a similar experience.

 

[Frank]

I don't like the term shallowness but I could see how cultivating certain public behaviors that are more likely to make others comfortable, like you or not be threatened by you could be beneficial. Even though underneath it all you may have much deeper opinions or ideas about the true nature of the social exchange, most people don't really give a shit about that.

 

[VagrantFarce]

I disagree. For the most part, I avoid small talk because it’s just taxing to me. I’ve avoided it for as long as I can remember. Somewhere in there I forgot how to even participate. And on top of that, I’ve built up a kind of disdain for it because when people meet me they want to engage me in it and I’ve developed an irrational aversion.

Now- being an very introverted person- I’ve learned that I need to set some time beforehand to ‘practice’ conversation in my head before I go any event in which I expect to deal with a lot of people. If I don’t do this, I’ve found it’s exponentially harder for me to participate in conversation. I invariably end up spending the entire evening (or afternoon, whatever) just listening or spitting out ‘word salad’ at people. I need to warm the engine up or it just keeps stalling for the entirety of the event.

The point: when I ‘practice’ in my head, I’m in the habit of ‘practicing’ conversation that I personally find interesting. This is where the “method to the madness” comes in. It had really never occurred to me to ‘practice’ the kind of small talk that I personally find inane, if only because I’d developed such an aversion. I hadn’t ‘practiced’ that kind of small talk in my head pry since junior high school- which was over 20 years ago. It wasn’t until I read that bit in the OP (or, at least something very similar, I don’t remember where/when I saw it first) that I figured out how to work on ‘breadth’.

I mean, I think there’s something brilliant about putting it into terms fit for a 13 year old kid, because I think that’s where ‘breadth’ and I started parting ways:



And there are probably quite a few introverts with a similar experience.

I should have supplemented my explanation with "as long as you're talking to people about things you have an interest in." I have a hatred for small talk as well, as I imagine many introverts do. Whenever I'm caught up in that sort of conversation I tend to instinctually scan for a subject area I'm willing to talk about at length, and then just try my best to steer things in that direction.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I should have supplemented my explanation with "as long as you're talking to people about things you have an interest in." I have a hatred for small talk as well, as I imagine many introverts do. Whenever I'm caught up in that sort of conversation I tend to instinctually scan for a subject area I'm willing to talk about at length, and then just try my best to steer things in that direction.

Life would def be a lot easier for introverts if the world were filled with people who had similar interests.

But it isn't.

The point of the piece in the OP is that introverts often feel excluded from opportunities in life they'd like to act on but feel too disempowered to even try because of an inability to function in certain environments. I think the piece effectively dissects that 'inability', and exposes it as an 'ability that atrophied due to unwillingness'- thereby making it, at the very least, doable.

 

[wolfy]

Here is an interesting quote from Psychological Types C. G. Jung

Almost more even than the extraverted is the introverted type subject to misunderstanding: not so much because the extravert is a more merciless or critical adversary, than he himself can easily be, but because the style of the epoch in which he himself participates is against him. Not in relation to the extraverted type, but as against our general accidental world-philosophy, he finds himself in the minority, not of course numerically, but from the evidence of his own feeling. In so far as he is a convinced participator in the general style, he undermines his own foundations, since the present style, with its almost exclusive acknowledgment of the visible and the tangible, is opposed to his principle. Because of its invisibility, he is obliged to depreciate the subjective factor, and to force himself to join in the extraverted overvaluation of the object. He himself sets the subjective factor at too low a value, and his feelings of inferiority are his chastisement for this sin. Little wonder, therefore, that it is precisely our epoch, and particularly those movements which are somewhat ahead of the time, that reveal the subjective factor in every kind of exaggerated, crude and grotesque form of expression. I refer to the art of the present day.

The undervaluation of his own principle makes the introvert egotistical, and forces upon him the psychology of the oppressed. The more egotistical he becomes, the stronger his impression grows that these others, who are apparently able, without qualms, to conform with the present style, are the oppressors against whom he must guard and [p. 498] protect himself. He does not usually perceive that he commits his capital mistake in not depending upon the subjective factor with that same loyalty and devotion with which the extravert follows the object By the undervaluation of his own principle, his penchant towards egoism becomes unavoidable, which, of course, richly deserves the prejudice of the extravert. Were he only to remain true to his own principle, the judment of 'egoist' would be radically false; for the justification of his attitude would be established by its general efficacy, and all misunderstandings dissipated.

And just 'cause I can
Crowded House - Weather With You

 

[Z Buck McFate]

He does not usually perceive that he commits his capital mistake in not depending upon the subjective factor with that same loyalty and devotion with which the extravert follows the object

Hmm. I think I'm going to stick this in my pipe and try smoking it for a bit.

Jung is awesome.

Also: Crowded House is awesome. Great vid.

 

[wolfy]

Hmm. I think I'm going to stick this in my pipe and try smoking it for a bit.

Jung is awesome.

Yeah, that quote you pulled out is great.