Using MBTI as a way... FFUUUUUU

[Jaguar]

Wow! If that is the case it is absolutely ridiculous. I am self employed as well so I have managed to avoid this type of absurdity. I think it can be useful to see what type of tasks one might possibly like and thus thrive in but only as a guess. Definitely not as a deciding factor.

Of course it's ridiculous.
I would never use MBTI to hire anyone.

 

[Athenian200]

First of all, there are people who have lost jobs or not been hired because of type discrimination.
I have read hundreds upon hundreds of stories over the years.
And those are only the stories I know of.
Imagine the stories I do not know of.

I don't know where some people are getting their information from,
but MBTI is used in the corporate world.
It's how MBTI makes most of its money.
How would you like to have a job hanging in the balance,
based on a 4-letter code?

Frankly, I think it's unfair discrimination.
How would you like to be refused a job, for being INFJ or ENFP?

I've been self-employed so I don't have to deal with that shit.
But there are many people who do have to deal with it.
I have also read, and heard, stories of "type cliques" inside companies.
There are companies who demand their employees put a sticky label on their clothing,
and wear it at the office.

No, I am not kidding.

MBTI makes its money off corporations.
Not people in this forum.

Well, I don't condone using it THAT way, but I do think it has applications as a starting point for personal self-analysis and possibly growth and understanding.

I don't believe we should condemn a system just because a group of ignorant people misused it. I say condemn the employers who misused MBTI to hire people, not MBTI itself. Any tool or idea can be abused and misused in the wrong hands.

 

[Jaguar]

Well, I don't condone using it THAT way, but I do think it has applications as a starting point for self-analysis and possibly growth and understanding.

I don't believe we should condemn a system just because a group of ignorant people misused it. I say condemn the employers who used MBTI to hire people, not MBTI itself.

You condemn a system that is proven unreliable.
MBTI is unreliable.
Anyone can Google the evidence out there.
Unless they're just plain lazy.

 

[Athenian200]

You condemn a system that is proven unreliable.
MBTI is unreliable.
Anyone can Google the evidence out there.
Unless they're just plain lazy.

Unreliable... for ONE application.

Are you saying it's unreliable for hiring people to positions? Of course it's unreliable for that. It shouldn't be used for that.

But are you saying it's not valuable as a set of archetypes, or as a tool for helping you recognize avenues for personal development?

The evidence just shows that it's unreliable for the application a bunch of people try to use it for, not that it's unreliable for other, less social applications. I would agree with condemning it's use as a hiring tool, though. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

 

[Jaguar]

Unreliable... for ONE application.

I did not mean for one application.
I meant unreliable for what it claims is true.

Athenian, we got into function orders yesterday. You were in the thread.
You know people don't have the function orders MBTI claims.
It's unreliable.

But are you saying it's not valuable as a set of archetypes, or as a tool for helping you recognize avenues for personal development?

Personal development?
Get serious.
How can anything that claims a part of you is automatically "bad" be developmental?

Case in point:
"ooooohhhhhh Johnny is operating out of his SHADOW."

The only people who should buy into that fear-mongering paranoia,
are those who had a recent lobotomy.

 

[Frank]

Of course it's ridiculous.
I would never use MBTI to hire anyone.

You or anybody else with half a brain.

I would be interested in learning which companies are doing this and comparing their performance against the industry standard. I have many executive level relatives in my family who work for large corps. They basically scoff at MBTI as well. Even the ones who head up HR for their companies. If you feel comfortable naming any corps. that use MBTI as the deciding factor in their hiring I would love to know who for my own little study. You could PM me if you don't want to put it out there.

 

[Jaguar]

You or anybody else with half a brain.

I would be interested in learning which companies are doing this and comparing their performance against the industry standard. I have many executive level relatives in my family who work for large corps. They basically scoff at MBTI as well. Even the ones who head up HR for their companies. If you feel comfortable naming any corps. that use MBTI as the deciding factor in their hiring I would love to know who for my own little study. You could PM me if you don't want to put it out there.

The information came to me from those who were affected.
That means employees and potential employees.

Despite the fact I believe the stories, technically, they are hearsay.
Therefore, I won't toss around company names.
I will say that when I was researching all of it 2 years ago, I encouraged many to file lawsuits.
They had a damn good case.

You got me thinking, so I got on Google for the hell of it.
It took mere minutes to find this story:

" Do you think it's alright for companies to rely on the MBTI to hire employees based on the results that prospective employees get?

I'm asking this because I remember when I was younger I used to type ENFP on the mbti and I got a job based on those results.
The job was a call center. My other friend who typed as an ISTP didn't get the job.
The interviewers never told us on what basis I was hired and he was not but I'm pretty sure that I got the job because of the results I got,
we weren't even interviewed, they just told us to do a 100 questionaire.

At the end I had to quit because I was constantly being told by my managers that I lied on the test,
but apparantly they still liked how I worked but I wasn't happy with it so ended up quitting."

Now that is what I call bullshit.
Giving someone an MBTI and NO interview.
What the hell is wrong with people?

 

[Wonkavision]

Oh Wonk, what will the revolution be without you? Our horses stand ready champing at the bit. When the order is given, we move forward quietly at a slow walk, with only the sound of soft clinking but even the horses can feel the excitement. And soon almost without any encouragement the horses break into a soft trot, all together, of one purpose.

After all, a cavalry charge is very much about the horses, for a horse is not truly a horse except in a herd galloping, hooves beating, across the plain.

And as the herd gallops together across the plain, they exult in being horses, each one being as courageous as the next.

As their blood rises, they break into an imperious canter - beating, beating the rhythm of the canter with their flying hooves.

With the wind in their faces and their hair flying, they look magnificent. Their eyes flash and nothing can stop them.

Until the order is given, "Charge".

At that point everything changes, the whole herd breaks into a gallop - this is what they live for - the whole herd dancing at full gallop. Each one leaves himself and becomes one with the herd. It's beyond reason. It is beyond common sense. It is simply beautiful.

The canons may roar, the shot may ring out, but at full gallop they transcend all and carry us across the battlefield as though we were angels. Until we take the enemy at full gallop with cold steel.

Afterwards in the Mess, there is one place left empty, an empty plate and an empty cup - Wonk is no longer with us - his horse misses him, the herd misses him and I miss him.

That sounds incredibly exciting and romantic.


OK---I'll be there alongside you, but for my own reasons, as a free-agent.

And I'll fight with all my heart, but I won't stick around when the dust has cleared.


In the immortal words of Men At Work,

Ain't nothing gonna break my stride
Nobody's gonna slow me down
Oh no, I've got to keep on moving

Ain't nothing gonna break my stride
I'm running and I won't touch ground
Oh no, I've got to keep on moving

 

[lunalum]

MBTI is a cult based on an invalid and unreliable personality test.

So MBTI has the advantage of meaning whatever you want it to mean.

This has definite appeal to the narcissist.

Not this again...

Invalid and unreliable? For what purposes? The uses for MBTI vary as widely as the number of people who use it. For my purposes it is completely reliable. It is my tool. The "meaning" remains pretty similar, it is personality test, but the uses vary. And I like being narcissistic, so RAWR to that

However there is no rational basis for MBTI and as it fits so neatly into the New Age Cult, I think there is reason to call MBTI a cult.

What are you going to call it - a personality test?

Rational basis? What about that it is a tool that helps people understand themselves? What is so irrational about that? If you're not going to call it a personality test, what should I call it? A tuna fish sandwich?

Good heavens, the cult leader is the Guru Carl Jung. And they worship themselves, after all this is a cult of the personality. And the rites and ceremonies are learning and repeating the jargon of MBTI over and over again, just like a ritual.

The claims of MBTI has been disproven over and over again but it makes no difference on the believers nor on their recruiting practices.

Again, it is a tool. Disproven to do what?

I'm glad you are alive and so am I.

And there are better things to do. This site is no longer called MBTI Central, rather it is now called Typology Central. And in particular it is psychological typology.

Typology of course covers many fields such as the typology of language, and typology is used in many of the natural sciences, and of course typology of the psyche in psychology.

Typology is a legitimate discipline. And it is only its use in MBTI that brings it into disrepute.

But perhaps our goal should be to find something that catches your interest and help you pursue it.

Do you not want to discuss psychological typology here? Would you rather classify some rocks or plants?

If that is the case, why is it used extensively in your military and business and why are there 'schools' profitably teaching it.

MBTI has no more truth value than astrology.

And I would be alarmed if my military and my businesses were using astrology.

I would not invest in any business that practised astrology and I would not feel safe if my military practised astrology.

Same with MBTI.

MBTI by definition is a test. You give info about your personality in it, and it spits out stuff about your personality out. Astrology is not a test in that way. The only thing you give it to tell you your personality is a birthdate, which is an entirely different method.

Because it's a personality test.

Breaking up common aspects of behavior, and assigning them to different personality types, while it lacks scientific precision, can prove to be a useful way of looking at behavior.

Personality theory, or temperament theory, began with Greek doctor Hippocrates and the four humors. MBTI is a more refined version of this, offering 16 humors.

 

[Mole]

Not this again...
Invalid and unreliable? For what purposes? The uses for MBTI vary as widely as the number of people who use it. For my purposes it is completely reliable. It is my tool. The "meaning" remains pretty similar, it is personality test, but the uses vary. And I like being narcissistic, so RAWR to that

Well, LunaLuminosity, your military extensively uses MBTI. Your businesses extensively use MBTI. But no Psychology Department in any of your Universities will touch it.

This does open up some interesting questions about MBTI - its history, its use, its popularity and what it actually is.

Fortunately this is a tolerant and well run site, and we are permitted to explore these questions here.

I am pleased to hear from you and reply to you, but I would prefer you addressed the issues rather than insulting me personally.

Thank you,
Victor.

 

[lunalum]

I do not understand how my post is personally insulting you.

I did not address you at any point, and I dare any mod to find a personal insult. I think I addressed the subject matter of this thread pretty well.

I am genuinely curious about your standpoint, and I wish to understand more about this through asking you questions.

But you have answered none of them, and I guess the perceived insult might be due to the fact that you bring this up all the time yet do not answer any of the key questions satisfactorily, so that your point does not get through at all, and this leaves me rather confused and frustrated.

To make this simpler, I will narrow it down to one question: how is MBTI invalid?

 

[bcvcdc]

Ah, my dearest Victor, we meet again. I just have to tell you what a simply fantastic post you made. I agree with everything you've said but especially the parts quoted below. And how appropriate is that since you're from the land down under! The only problems I see with your post are:
1.) Reality is only what you think it is, therefore it can be nothing short of amazing, but
2.) when we think of reality it isn't "reality", it's an exact illusion based on what our thoughts are.

Well, number one isn't a problem, it leads to the problem by virtue of a kind of intelligence most people would consider crazy.

It has been so lovely to talk with you again my friend. Stay warm there in the winter of oz.

Your friend,
bcvcdc

MBTI is a cult based on an invalid and unreliable personality test.

snip

So MBTI has the advantage of meaning whatever you want it to mean.MBTI will simply lead you into circular reasoning and confirmation bias.

 

[Ivy]

Wonka, that song is NOT by Men At Work!

 

[Athenian200]

I did not mean for one application.
I meant unreliable for what it claims is true.

Athenian, we got into function orders yesterday. You were in the thread.
You know people don't have the function orders MBTI claims.
It's unreliable.

I guess the thing is, I don't really see it as laying claim to a "truth." I don't see why we couldn't just say that those are someone's idea of ideal functional orders.

Do things have to be "true" and "false" rather than just ideas that evoke thought about a subject and serve as a framework for your own ideas?

You see, what I like to do is tear apart MBTI and use pieces of it to string together my own ideas about personality.

Personal development?
Get serious.
How can anything that claims a part of you is automatically "bad" be developmental?

Case in point:
"ooooohhhhhh Johnny is operating out of his SHADOW."

The only people who should buy into that fear-mongering paranoia,
are those who had a recent lobotomy.

LOL. Shadow is BAD, Shadow is BAD!!

The shadow types aren't any worse than any other types, unless they're immature. But then, immature people of your own type aren't exactly a picnic, either, though it might take you longer to notice because they don't make you uncomfortable.

But yeah, I totally disagree with this one. I prefer the variations on MBTI theory that view the shadow as missing parts of yourself you should aspire to develop, not the ones that view it as a weakness that only comes out under stress. In fact, that's where I started, not with the original MBTI.

Basically, I like MBTI theory for the concepts that can be mined from it, I don't accept the system lock, stock, and barrel. I only use parts of it to further my own understanding where it seems applicable.

Does that make sense? Basically, you're looking at MBTI as an intact building with a specific design that needs to be torn down. I'm looking at it as a toolbox full of stuff I can use or discard as I please.

 

[Moiety]

If only more people knew and understood the truth that MBTI provides. Discovering your type is liberating.

I can be for some I guess. But not everyone pins all their hopes for self-improvement on a system whose veracity is questionable, like every system . One can juggle, one can multi-task and doubting is very healthy.

No longer distracted by pursuits that are not befitting one's type but rather becoming empowered to focus on areas which your type is suited for.

Distracted? Befitting? Suited? I find it so limiting to have a system telling me what I should do or am good at doing etc...Besides it's not telling you to do that in any way. The statistics and patterns are there for you to do with them what you wish. I could focus on Ne and Fi, my strengths. Or I could try and improve my Te and my Si, my weaknesses.




I agree with Victor to a certain extent. Like most other religions, (I'm going with the metaphor here for the sake of it) you can approach it many ways.

You can look at Jesus' teachings and apply them to your life based on what you recognize as good, you can blindly follow the Bible (all the while trying to look past the possible contradictions ), you can use it to improve yourself, you can use it to tell others what to do....etc etc

I must say though, that the stench of confirmation bias can be quite revolting...it seems some people do see it as religion. As far as I'm concerned, faith as nothing to do with it. If people like that sort of stuff, maybe they should look into astrology. I'm a Libra. Go me.

 

[Jaguar]

I don't see why we couldn't just say that those are someone's idea of ideal functional orders.

I don't have a problem with that. But others sure would.

There are quite a few people who take MBTI seriously.
In another thread, I was reading an INFP who said they are fond of Ni and Ti.
A jackass came into the thread, and tells the person there is no way they are INFP,
if they are fond of Ni and Ti.

It's this nazi function bullshit that has to stop.
Using MBTI has screwed up so many people's heads,
it has sucked all original thinking out of their skull.

There is no proof whatsoever that an INFP or XXXX has to have a certain function order.

NONE.

You see, what I like to do is tear apart MBTI and use pieces of it to string together my own ideas about personality.

I have no problem with that.
I applaud you for taking initiative, and doing something different.

The shadow types aren't any worse than any other types, unless they're immature. But then, immature people of your own type aren't exactly a picnic, either, though it might take you longer to notice because they don't make you uncomfortable.

Athenian, silverware or a coffee cup could make you uncomfortable.
You tend to get pretty hypersensitive about things that would never phase the average individual.

I prefer the variations on MBTI theory that view the shadow as missing parts of yourself you should aspire to develop, not the ones that view it as a weakness that only comes out under stress. In fact, that's where I started, not with the original MBTI.

I wish people would refrain from using the word "shadow" to describe the unconscious.
There is no proof that what is unconscious is negative.
And there certainly is no proof that what is conscious is positive.

That is just common sense.
Something a lot of people are lacking in this forum.

Frankly, I have said for years if you want to see someone's true colors,
they will always be found in the unconscious.

It's that part of us that takes off running to save someone whose life is in jeopardy,
while others stand by with their thumb up their ass.
What we do unconsciously is an "auto-pilot" response.
We do not stop to think.
That doesn't have to be a negative thing.

It's in life's difficult moments, that we find our true selves.
We sure as hell don't find our true selves by using MBTI.
Many people answer those questions as they WISH themselves to be,
rather than how they really are.

 

[professor goodstain]

Frankly, I have said for years if you want to see someone's true colors,
they will always be found in the unconscious.

It's that part of us that takes off running to save someone whose life is in jeopardy,
while others stand by with their thumb up their ass.
What we do unconsciously is an "auto-pilot" response.
We do not stop to think.
That doesn't have to be a negative thing.

Theoretically, if i notice someone in distress, immature "shadow" Fe kicks in and i run to their aid until Fe links up with its counterpart, in my case developed Ni/Si, at which point i then turn around and run the other direction and hopefully escape without a scratch

Side note: It would most certainly be nice to have 1,096 different portraits/profiles to tinker with which match every possible function order.

 

[Jaguar]

Side note: It would most certainly be nice to have 1,096 different portraits/profiles to tinker with which match every possible function order.

Singer and Loomis developed an alternative to MBTI years ago,
which does exactly what you mention.

They have no restrictions on function order, like MBTI mandates.
Unfortunately it can't be taken online, nor is it free.

 

[Athenian200]

I don't have a problem with that. But others sure would.

There are quite a few people who take MBTI seriously.
In another thread, I was reading an INFP who said they are fond of Ni and Ti.
A jackass came into the thread, and tells the person there is no way they are INFP,
if they are fond of Ni and Ti.

It's this nazi function bullshit that has to stop.
Using MBTI has screwed up so many people's heads,
it has sucked all original thinking out of their skull.

There is no proof whatsoever that an INFP or XXXX has to have a certain function order.

NONE.

Okay, I'd agree with that. I hate people who just go around quoting the book and not thinking for themselves.

Eh, personally I'd type that person as INFP. I mean, Fi is strongest, first Extraverted function is Ne. If you REALLY wanted to stretch, you could say they should be an ISFP in need of Se because of the Ni in there, but that's it, and I think INFP is a better fit unless they relate more to ISFP.

Athenian, silverware or a coffee cup could make you uncomfortable.
You tend to get pretty hypersensitive about things that would never phase the average individual.

I don't know why that is, either. I'm a very hypersensitive person... always have been.

I wish people would refrain from using the word "shadow" to describe the unconscious.
There is no proof that what is unconscious is negative.
And there certainly is no proof that what is conscious is positive.

That is just common sense.
Something a lot of people are lacking in this forum.

Frankly, I have said for years if you want to see someone's true colors,
they will always be found in the unconscious.

It's that part of us that takes off running to save someone whose life is in jeopardy,
while others stand by with their thumb up their ass.
What we do unconsciously is an "auto-pilot" response.
We do not stop to think.
That doesn't have to be a negative thing.

It's in life's difficult moments, that we find our true selves.
We sure as hell don't find our true selves by using MBTI.
Many people answer those questions as they WISH themselves to be,
rather than how they really are.

Well, I suppose I agree. The unconscious is not bad, it's just the part of you you don't have as much control over. But it really does bother me to think I should be judged by what I do unconsciously and have less control over. It just seems a little unfair, regardless of whether I do it well or poorly.

Well, what do I do unconsciously? I scream and jump on chairs when I see a bug, or hide under sheets when there's a large flying bug that looks dangerous. Spilled a drink and ran 2 blocks crying, without even knowing where I was headed, because someone's large grey dog got loose unexpectedly. And I locked someone else out of their house, telling them I wouldn't come out until the dog outside was restrained. Finally, I fell over backwards in a chair screaming "Nooo!!" when someone asked me if I wanted to pet a snake... and in another case, when a bunch of people were playing with a snake the teacher had out, I was shivering in the corner with everyone laughing at me until they were done.

Oh, and when I smelled smoke from a real fire, I didn't follow the fire drill procedure we'd be trained in... I just opened up the window, hopped out, and put distance between myself and the building. Got yelled at about that, too. There was also a time when my Dad was playing with a switchblade thing he used to open boxes, and when he made the blade whip out, I jumped about 4 feet backwards and put my arms in front of me in a defensive position as if I thought I were going to be attacked. Everyone teased me about it.

So yeah... I'd kind of prefer not to be judged by what I do unconsciously. Because it's pretty embarrassing in my case. It's not like I haven't TRIED to stop, but those impulses are really, really strong.

 

[Snow Turtle]

MBTI is immensely popular throughout the developed world. And it has been popular since WW II. It is even used extensively by business and the military, not to mention the many 'schools' that charge to teach it.

And MBTI rides on the back of the New Age Cult that has been popular since the beginning of the 20th Century.

And I agree with you that MBTI is not a conspiracy because it appeals to peoples natural needs and wishes.

However there is no rational basis for MBTI and as it fits so neatly into the New Age Cult, I think there is reason to call MBTI a cult.

What are you going to call it - a personality test?

A psuedo personality-theory that appears to have some validity based on inference. It might not be accurate but it appears to capture some sort of cognition. I personally don't get all the hate against theories not based on empiricism. =/