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  1. #51
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    I do not understand how my post is personally insulting you.

    I did not address you at any point, and I dare any mod to find a personal insult. I think I addressed the subject matter of this thread pretty well.

    I am genuinely curious about your standpoint, and I wish to understand more about this through asking you questions.

    But you have answered none of them, and I guess the perceived insult might be due to the fact that you bring this up all the time yet do not answer any of the key questions satisfactorily, so that your point does not get through at all, and this leaves me rather confused and frustrated.

    To make this simpler, I will narrow it down to one question: how is MBTI invalid?

  2. #52
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    Ah, my dearest Victor, we meet again. I just have to tell you what a simply fantastic post you made. I agree with everything you've said but especially the parts quoted below. And how appropriate is that since you're from the land down under! The only problems I see with your post are:
    1.) Reality is only what you think it is, therefore it can be nothing short of amazing, but
    2.) when we think of reality it isn't "reality", it's an exact illusion based on what our thoughts are.

    Well, number one isn't a problem, it leads to the problem by virtue of a kind of intelligence most people would consider crazy.

    It has been so lovely to talk with you again my friend. Stay warm there in the winter of oz.

    Your friend,
    bcvcdc

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    MBTI is a cult based on an invalid and unreliable personality test.

    snip

    So MBTI has the advantage of meaning whatever you want it to mean.MBTI will simply lead you into circular reasoning and confirmation bias.

  3. #53
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Wonka, that song is NOT by Men At Work!
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #54
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I did not mean for one application.
    I meant unreliable for what it claims is true.

    Athenian, we got into function orders yesterday. You were in the thread.
    You know people don't have the function orders MBTI claims.
    It's unreliable.
    I guess the thing is, I don't really see it as laying claim to a "truth." I don't see why we couldn't just say that those are someone's idea of ideal functional orders.

    Do things have to be "true" and "false" rather than just ideas that evoke thought about a subject and serve as a framework for your own ideas?

    You see, what I like to do is tear apart MBTI and use pieces of it to string together my own ideas about personality.
    Personal development?
    Get serious.
    How can anything that claims a part of you is automatically "bad" be developmental?

    Case in point:
    "ooooohhhhhh Johnny is operating out of his SHADOW."

    The only people who should buy into that fear-mongering paranoia,
    are those who had a recent lobotomy.
    LOL. Shadow is BAD, Shadow is BAD!!

    The shadow types aren't any worse than any other types, unless they're immature. But then, immature people of your own type aren't exactly a picnic, either, though it might take you longer to notice because they don't make you uncomfortable.

    But yeah, I totally disagree with this one. I prefer the variations on MBTI theory that view the shadow as missing parts of yourself you should aspire to develop, not the ones that view it as a weakness that only comes out under stress. In fact, that's where I started, not with the original MBTI.

    Basically, I like MBTI theory for the concepts that can be mined from it, I don't accept the system lock, stock, and barrel. I only use parts of it to further my own understanding where it seems applicable.

    Does that make sense? Basically, you're looking at MBTI as an intact building with a specific design that needs to be torn down. I'm looking at it as a toolbox full of stuff I can use or discard as I please.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nizy View Post
    If only more people knew and understood the truth that MBTI provides. Discovering your type is liberating.
    I can be for some I guess. But not everyone pins all their hopes for self-improvement on a system whose veracity is questionable, like every system . One can juggle, one can multi-task and doubting is very healthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizy View Post
    No longer distracted by pursuits that are not befitting one's type but rather becoming empowered to focus on areas which your type is suited for.
    Distracted? Befitting? Suited? I find it so limiting to have a system telling me what I should do or am good at doing etc...Besides it's not telling you to do that in any way. The statistics and patterns are there for you to do with them what you wish. I could focus on Ne and Fi, my strengths. Or I could try and improve my Te and my Si, my weaknesses.




    I agree with Victor to a certain extent. Like most other religions, (I'm going with the metaphor here for the sake of it) you can approach it many ways.

    You can look at Jesus' teachings and apply them to your life based on what you recognize as good, you can blindly follow the Bible (all the while trying to look past the possible contradictions ), you can use it to improve yourself, you can use it to tell others what to do....etc etc

    I must say though, that the stench of confirmation bias can be quite revolting...it seems some people do see it as religion. As far as I'm concerned, faith as nothing to do with it. If people like that sort of stuff, maybe they should look into astrology. I'm a Libra. Go me.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I don't see why we couldn't just say that those are someone's idea of ideal functional orders.
    I don't have a problem with that. But others sure would.

    There are quite a few people who take MBTI seriously.
    In another thread, I was reading an INFP who said they are fond of Ni and Ti.
    A jackass came into the thread, and tells the person there is no way they are INFP,
    if they are fond of Ni and Ti.

    It's this nazi function bullshit that has to stop.
    Using MBTI has screwed up so many people's heads,
    it has sucked all original thinking out of their skull.

    There is no proof whatsoever that an INFP or XXXX has to have a certain function order.

    NONE.

    You see, what I like to do is tear apart MBTI and use pieces of it to string together my own ideas about personality.
    I have no problem with that.
    I applaud you for taking initiative, and doing something different.


    The shadow types aren't any worse than any other types, unless they're immature. But then, immature people of your own type aren't exactly a picnic, either, though it might take you longer to notice because they don't make you uncomfortable.
    Athenian, silverware or a coffee cup could make you uncomfortable.
    You tend to get pretty hypersensitive about things that would never phase the average individual.

    I prefer the variations on MBTI theory that view the shadow as missing parts of yourself you should aspire to develop, not the ones that view it as a weakness that only comes out under stress. In fact, that's where I started, not with the original MBTI.
    I wish people would refrain from using the word "shadow" to describe the unconscious.
    There is no proof that what is unconscious is negative.
    And there certainly is no proof that what is conscious is positive.

    That is just common sense.
    Something a lot of people are lacking in this forum.

    Frankly, I have said for years if you want to see someone's true colors,
    they will always be found in the unconscious.

    It's that part of us that takes off running to save someone whose life is in jeopardy,
    while others stand by with their thumb up their ass.
    What we do unconsciously is an "auto-pilot" response.
    We do not stop to think.
    That doesn't have to be a negative thing.

    It's in life's difficult moments, that we find our true selves.
    We sure as hell don't find our true selves by using MBTI.
    Many people answer those questions as they WISH themselves to be,
    rather than how they really are.

  7. #57
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post

    Frankly, I have said for years if you want to see someone's true colors,
    they will always be found in the unconscious.

    It's that part of us that takes off running to save someone whose life is in jeopardy,
    while others stand by with their thumb up their ass.
    What we do unconsciously is an "auto-pilot" response.
    We do not stop to think.
    That doesn't have to be a negative thing.
    Theoretically, if i notice someone in distress, immature "shadow" Fe kicks in and i run to their aid until Fe links up with its counterpart, in my case developed Ni/Si, at which point i then turn around and run the other direction and hopefully escape without a scratch

    Side note: It would most certainly be nice to have 1,096 different portraits/profiles to tinker with which match every possible function order.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  8. #58
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post

    Side note: It would most certainly be nice to have 1,096 different portraits/profiles to tinker with which match every possible function order.

    Singer and Loomis developed an alternative to MBTI years ago,
    which does exactly what you mention.

    They have no restrictions on function order, like MBTI mandates.
    Unfortunately it can't be taken online, nor is it free.

  9. #59
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I don't have a problem with that. But others sure would.

    There are quite a few people who take MBTI seriously.
    In another thread, I was reading an INFP who said they are fond of Ni and Ti.
    A jackass came into the thread, and tells the person there is no way they are INFP,
    if they are fond of Ni and Ti.

    It's this nazi function bullshit that has to stop.
    Using MBTI has screwed up so many people's heads,
    it has sucked all original thinking out of their skull.

    There is no proof whatsoever that an INFP or XXXX has to have a certain function order.

    NONE.
    Okay, I'd agree with that. I hate people who just go around quoting the book and not thinking for themselves.

    Eh, personally I'd type that person as INFP. I mean, Fi is strongest, first Extraverted function is Ne. If you REALLY wanted to stretch, you could say they should be an ISFP in need of Se because of the Ni in there, but that's it, and I think INFP is a better fit unless they relate more to ISFP.

    Athenian, silverware or a coffee cup could make you uncomfortable.
    You tend to get pretty hypersensitive about things that would never phase the average individual.
    I don't know why that is, either. I'm a very hypersensitive person... always have been.
    I wish people would refrain from using the word "shadow" to describe the unconscious.
    There is no proof that what is unconscious is negative.
    And there certainly is no proof that what is conscious is positive.

    That is just common sense.
    Something a lot of people are lacking in this forum.

    Frankly, I have said for years if you want to see someone's true colors,
    they will always be found in the unconscious.

    It's that part of us that takes off running to save someone whose life is in jeopardy,
    while others stand by with their thumb up their ass.
    What we do unconsciously is an "auto-pilot" response.
    We do not stop to think.
    That doesn't have to be a negative thing.

    It's in life's difficult moments, that we find our true selves.
    We sure as hell don't find our true selves by using MBTI.
    Many people answer those questions as they WISH themselves to be,
    rather than how they really are.
    Well, I suppose I agree. The unconscious is not bad, it's just the part of you you don't have as much control over. But it really does bother me to think I should be judged by what I do unconsciously and have less control over. It just seems a little unfair, regardless of whether I do it well or poorly.

    Well, what do I do unconsciously? I scream and jump on chairs when I see a bug, or hide under sheets when there's a large flying bug that looks dangerous. Spilled a drink and ran 2 blocks crying, without even knowing where I was headed, because someone's large grey dog got loose unexpectedly. And I locked someone else out of their house, telling them I wouldn't come out until the dog outside was restrained. Finally, I fell over backwards in a chair screaming "Nooo!!" when someone asked me if I wanted to pet a snake... and in another case, when a bunch of people were playing with a snake the teacher had out, I was shivering in the corner with everyone laughing at me until they were done.

    Oh, and when I smelled smoke from a real fire, I didn't follow the fire drill procedure we'd be trained in... I just opened up the window, hopped out, and put distance between myself and the building. Got yelled at about that, too. There was also a time when my Dad was playing with a switchblade thing he used to open boxes, and when he made the blade whip out, I jumped about 4 feet backwards and put my arms in front of me in a defensive position as if I thought I were going to be attacked. Everyone teased me about it.

    So yeah... I'd kind of prefer not to be judged by what I do unconsciously. Because it's pretty embarrassing in my case. It's not like I haven't TRIED to stop, but those impulses are really, really strong.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    MBTI is immensely popular throughout the developed world. And it has been popular since WW II. It is even used extensively by business and the military, not to mention the many 'schools' that charge to teach it.

    And MBTI rides on the back of the New Age Cult that has been popular since the beginning of the 20th Century.

    And I agree with you that MBTI is not a conspiracy because it appeals to peoples natural needs and wishes.

    However there is no rational basis for MBTI and as it fits so neatly into the New Age Cult, I think there is reason to call MBTI a cult.

    What are you going to call it - a personality test?
    A psuedo personality-theory that appears to have some validity based on inference. It might not be accurate but it appears to capture some sort of cognition. I personally don't get all the hate against theories not based on empiricism. =/

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