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  1. #11
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Honestly, I don't see ISFJs here doing much of the sort of thing that you describe, and the average descriptions actually seem realistic in regards to the majority ISFJs where I am. That is generally how ISFJs (and especially the ISFJ women) behave.
    I'm not saying my ISFJ friend is representative - I believe her to be among the cream of the ISFJ crop education-wise and increasingly also in terms of personal development - but if the N descriptions are aspirational, then IMO the S descriptions should also be aspirational. I find that the asymmetry of 'average S' versus 'best of N' found in a lot of the descriptions constitutes an unnecessary hurdle in introducing Sensers to MBTI.

    If Sensors really did find the MBTI a valuable tool, why does it seem so few of them are interested in producing a "valid and fair" description of themselves? Shouldn't this problem have been self-corrected by now?
    There is a difference between interest in the practical application of MBTI and interest in (and talent for) developing the theory. My friend is living proof that Sensers can find the MBTI to be a valuable tool, notice and resent the asymmetry described above, yet not do anything to correct it.

    For the record, I don't believe that the asymmetry is the only factor lowering S interest in MBTI, but I do believe it is a non-negligible one, and as I stated before, an unnecessary one.

  2. #12
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Honestly, the intellectual elitism of this forum stinks. What does being a chemical engineer with a brillant master thesis has to do with not being a typical ISFJ?
    According to the personalitypage career recommendations for ISFJ that I link to above and many others like it, everything.

    Edit: Sorry for the double post.

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I'm not saying my ISFJ friend is representative - I believe her to be among the cream of the ISFJ crop education-wise and increasingly also in terms of personal development - but if the N descriptions are aspirational, then IMO the S descriptions should also be aspirational. I find that the asymmetry of 'average S' versus 'best of N' found in a lot of the descriptions constitutes an unnecessary hurdle in introducing Sensers to MBTI.
    I think, Eco, that I suppose I am tiring of the incessant whining and bitching. I'm tired of people taking shots and insinuating that N's are so biased and oppressive to S's. As often as some people feel oppressed, I tired of being vilified (or having my "group" be vilified).

    Even with an inevitable slant in place, for most of us it is NOT purposeful and we simply need to be helped to correct it; and the same goes for S's, who often have biases about N types, but usually I just chalk it up as the typical miscommunication/misunderstanding that human beings are prone to rather than insinuating some sort of bad motivations and prejudice.

    The road runs both ways.

    If we all think the Sensor descriptions are so horrible, then let us write some new ones that people think are credible and aspirational. That is the preferred solution. The people who constantly complain must have SOME sort of ideal in mind, to compare the current ones to.

    So let's get to it!

    As far as FDG's comment goes, I suppose the connection between ISFJs and chemical engineering is something for Data and Statistics to resolve -- not personal agendas. I don't care what the outcome is -- if ISFJs flock to chemical engineering and master's theses, more power to them -- but the data percentiles will determine what's correct and what is inaccurate.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Jen, you're pushing my displacement buttons with that post. However, I am not sure whether I am being objective or not, and for that reason I will confine my reply to the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    If we all think the Sensor descriptions are so horrible, then let us write some new ones that people think are credible and aspirational.
    That is actually on my to-do list though I don't expect to be able to write good descriptions until I have gotten to know many more years' worth of new people.

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Jen, you're pushing my displacement buttons with that post.
    Well, if it means anything, I was not actually responding to you at all -- your post was simply a springboard into a problem I was having with some other people's posts. I'm sorry if I was not clear in my wording.

    (But it would explain any displacement vibes you might have received.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    As far as FDG's comment goes, I suppose the connection between ISFJs and chemical engineering is something for Data and Statistics to resolve -- not personal agendas. I don't care what the outcome is -- if ISFJs flock to chemical engineering and master's theses, more power to them -- but the data percentiles will determine what's correct and what is inaccurate.
    What I'm saying is that: if a description says that ISFJs are well-suited for being nurses, then a comparison with chemical engineering should not be used as an implied basis for a discrimination in favor of chemical engineers and against nurses in terms of "which one of the two is a better human being".

    In any case, I find this description of ISFJ females to be perfect (it's even mentioned the possibility of them being very successful academically speaking):

    Female portrait

    Krepen'kaya, ordered DRAYZERKA manages well its body, it dvizhetsya confidently and beautifully, it sits exactly. It has outstanding carriage. Clothing appears on it accurately and appropriately. Its entire appearance produces very worthy impression. But also its certain baring not at all spoils, but only it decorates - it it does not be necessary to be troubled for its figure. Moreover it very graceful.

    Most frequently, it has correct face and the unusually expressive, warm and agitating eyes. It knows how to select the suitable hair-do and straight-away professionally it uses makiyazhem.

    In the childhood this planing and correct girl. Yes even assiduity by it not to occupy. She knows that it means to enter well, as it is must and as it is not must itself news. In it order in the head, on the writing desk and in the briefcase, the writing-books are designed by beautiful handwriting.

    DRAYZERKI are demanding to themselves, they possess strong will and they can force themselves to make much of the fact that children usually to make does not be desirable. But they manifest exactingness also of others. So that not all desiring can become girl friends and friends of this girl. DRAYZERKA is very and very exacting to others. And no one it gets down any irresponsibility. The lessons of house it makes in accordance with the plan as, however, and much other. It loves the measured off life from the childhood itself and it can be upset, if its plans were destroyed. In such cases sometimes unexpectedly occurs even scene with the tears. So that it is must no unexpected outputs into the zoo or in del'finariy. It is better to plan measures previously.

    It is possible to calculate with general assiduity and assiduity that DRAYZERKA will learn well. Sometimes even medal winners are obtained from them. And although by them nevertheless it considerably more greatly pleases itself to be occupied by humanitarian objects, than by mathematics and by natural science, girls of this type frequently go into technical VUZ - Institute of Higher Education and, because of their assiduity, even they work then as engineers.

    DRAYZERKI have nothing against the serious occupations by sport. In them beautiful, strong body; therefore from them are obtained outstanding gimnastki, plovchikhi (synchronous floating), figure skaters, tsirkachki, striptizershi.

    The large companies, where too many unknown people, DRAYZERKA do not love. It from the childhood itself acquires by one or two close friends. The following wave of the completion of friendly housing is fallen to the institute. But also here it will be collected from the force of 1-2 girl friends. And although friends in it actually a little, then it, as a rule, preserves them around itself for life. Specifically, with them it will share by its happiness and misfortunes.

    But the fact that it is usually small close friends, it goes without saying, in it does not mean that it does not love sometimes to be enjoyed. These girls dance well and moreover are very beautiful and graceful. So that the success in any company is provide ford with them. But do not hope that you easily will enter into the confidence to DRAYZERKE. She will focus on you serious attention, if you are promising, young loaded. It also pleases itself by it, when man is characterized by rapidity and mental acuity. If all this with you, then can not doubt, that it marries you on itself sufficiently rapidly, because DRAYZERKA - girl exclusively have purposed and sequential. And she never steps back from her purposes.

    When you are married it, then you will reveal that you have the exceptionally responsible, industrious wife, who diligently follows the economy. It is approached ideal cleanliness, so that zealous cleans and removes its house, leading it literally to the sterility. From time to time you will transpose by it furniture, because sometimes it it wants something new.

    Prepare to the fact that to walk with it into the store will be not such already light occupation. The fact is that your wife is badly oriented, where it is necessary to select of two even more than objects. Therefore instead of standing together with it in counter and on half-hour to listen to, as it kolebletsya even it doubts, better make a decision themselves, after freeing it from this need. In end- that of the ends, according to large very many there is no difference, you will purchase pink kitchen towel or zhelten'koye. However, DRAYZERKA - essence sufficiently modest and loves to bypass with small, so that not too frequently you will fall into such situations. And still they love to economize, but it is unique - they can lose much, but save ruble.

    Prepares your wife on the standard prescriptions, rolled by centuries or obtained from the mom. She prefers that checked and reliable to all possible innovations. Your wife also honors traditions; therefore prepare to note houses all traditional holidays and to assume in herself relatives and close circle of close friends.

    DRAYZERKA - restrained and brought up woman, with a deep sense of self-respect. True, if you derive it from yourselves, she can arrange to you the stormy, emotional scene, which you will memorize for a long time. That zh, so she protects her positions in the life.

    She loves so that all in the house would live in the established by it, inviolable order, which it will everyday inject by all forces. The joint matters in its family are planned previously, because it badly transfers uncertainty. And already if it something solves, then it always attempts to adhere to the solution accepted.

    If from the evening I prepared to itself clothing, and in the morning weather proved to be not that, which they promised, and for me it was necessary to rapidly put on something another, then in me entire day can go not then, because mood was created not under this clothing.

    DRAYZERKI - strict, but loving moms. They require of the children of obedience and train them to the order. In any case, the physical state of children, the preparation of lessons and contact with the friends will always be under the control strict and indefatigable DRAYZERKI. It must know, with whom the child associates, where he went and when he returns. The fact is that any uncertainty for it is not tolerated. Briefly, it will try to do so that the intentions of all relatives would be transparent, and behavior were known.

    Because of their assiduity and assiduity DRAYZERKI they can be acknowledged as some of the most reliable collaborators, because, among entire other things, they still be ill for their matter. But if work for DRAYZERKI is new, then do not forget to give the most detailed instructions to it, that also as to make, otherwise the matter will not move from dead center. It will be still better, if she writes down that as in what sequence to make. But it is here for that work, with which it is already well familiar, it is possible not to be disturbed. Everything will be made honestly, accurately and in time.

    And, nevertheless, on any work DRAYZEROK first of all occupy people with their problems. But therefore it will be better, if they select for themselves the work, which is directly connected with the people. DRAYZERKI - excellent teachers (especially low-order classes), educators in kindergartens, psychologists, nurse, children's doctors, model. From them also are obtained excellent correctors, the editors and the instructors of foreign language.
    Personally, I've had some ISFJ girlfriends (*) that had dedicated the core of their lives to school/work/obligations. Quickly after getting used to my ways (read: forcing them to actually live life instead of being so duty-bound) they admitted that, even if pleased by their academic successes, they felt like they were wasting their life away.

    (*)Not meant as bragging, since I've only had ISFJ girlfriends, so my utilization of the adjective "some" is natural.

  7. #17
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Even ISFJs that are very smart and have excellent grades will indeed share a lot of similarities with ISFJ profiles.

    Honestly, the intellectual elitism of this forum stinks. What does being a chemical engineer with a brillant master thesis has to do with not being a typical ISFJ?
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    What I'm saying is that: if a description says that ISFJs are well-suited for being nurses, then a comparison with chemical engineering should not be used as an implied basis for a discrimination in favor of chemical engineers and against nurses in terms of "which one of the two is a better human being".
    You're missing the point. It's my ISFJ friend who's rolling her eyes at the standard ISFJ career recommendations, not me. Similarly, I have witnessed two ISTP med students struggle with figuring out their type because they didn't identify with the 'mechanic' description at personalitypage. There is a real hurdle in getting these Sensers to further explore MBTI when they find themselves demoted career-wise (and otherwise) according to their own perception.

  8. #18
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Honestly, the intellectual elitism of this forum stinks.
    Yes. Yes, it does. The forum increasingly serves as a place to aggrandize for those who are of strong (and/or debilitating) introversion.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    I suppose I am tiring of the incessant whining and bitching. I'm tired of people taking shots and insinuating that N's are so biased and oppressive to S's. As often as some people feel oppressed, I tired of being vilified (or having my "group" be vilified).

    Even with an inevitable slant in place, for most of us it is NOT purposeful and we simply need to be helped to correct it; and the same goes for S's, who often have biases about N types, but usually I just chalk it up as the typical miscommunication/misunderstanding that human beings are prone to rather than insinuating some sort of bad motivations and prejudice.

    The road runs both ways.
    Excellent post. It's about time someone said it.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  10. #20
    Member Andy K Octopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by developer View Post
    I think that it reflects a much deeper problem within the MBTI community. Actually, one should expect a lot of ISTJs and ISFJs in a forum like this: MBTI is a very practical and useful tool, and it helps you to get along better with other people, so this should very much appeal to the values of SJs. I see a lot of ISTJs contributing to other online forums (e.g. special interest forums like TimeZone), so the medium should be okay for them as well. This forum here is very friendly and accepting, so the tone should not scare away anybody either.

    I think the reason why this forum as well as all other MBTI forums gets so little traction with Sensors is that most of the S type descriptions are offensive for any intelligent person. If you are a calm and orginized person, according to MBTI you can be only a Scientist (INTJ), a Sage (INFJ), a Peacounter (ISTJ), or a Doormat (ISFJ) - sorry for the exaggeration. If you happen to be an N, those descriptions are very flattering (who would not like to be a deep mystic or a super bright mastermind), but if you clearly test on the S side, the options are not flattering at all.

    I have a number of super bright ISTJs and ISFJs as friends and associates, and I know the descriptions are way off the mark. Most of you seem to realize that either. But as long as you see what you currently get when you google ISFJ or ISTJ, we will not see many Sensors here.

    I think S types are badly misrepresented as dull and unimaginative on many MBTI descriptions, and that even here people fail to see that N and S are not signs of intelligence or aptitude or even of imagination

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