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  1. #1
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Default The Nature of Ne -- a metaphorical visual

    For Ne, I have a mental image that I developed which I think embodies the qualities of Ne. I see Ne as a large open field, with basic factual tenets erected as pillars, or totem poles or whatever. These are interconnected by strings, or maybe "cobwebs" would be a better way to visualize it. These interconnections embody the link between ideas, with the Ne process causing one to "walk" from one idea to another, all while keeping a short ball of yarn unravelling so you can jump back to the original idea. When one zooms in and focuses on an idea, Ne would show you a full manifest of branches to different related ideas; the shape and form of these branches, cobwebs, strings, whatever all tell you something about the relationship between those ideas.

    This may be a source of amusement for some because the ideas which interconnect to another idea may be surprising at times.

    I keep wondering about something though--the ideas themselves, the totem poles in this vast field, are those Si impulses? If so, it would represent a symbiotic relationship between Ne and Si where Si impulses are steadfast ideas, and Ne represents a vast, complex fabric of connections between those Si impulses. It would imply that Ne impulses always have a measure of Si involved within them (as Si impulses are the source and target objects for every Ne connection), and Si always exist in an interconnected fabric of Ne.

    Just an idea. (I'd love any criticism, associations or elaboration on this)

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    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    More thoughts on this Ne thing. I believe the attributes of the relationships between ideas, the "shape and form" of the cobwebs, come from Ji (Ti/Fi) operating as necessary to sort out the relationship between the ideas. So from my point of view, the fabric of connections represents Ne, and the shape and form of each individual interconnect represents the end-result of whichever Ji process was used to determine that relationship.

    Naturally, I find myself associating things in very direct, "logical" associations; when my impression of an idea or its relationship varies from others' view, I find it usually results from either a lack of information (in metaphorical terms, the interconnect had a few hops between them that I couldn't see until I was provided with new information), or the other person was simply using the opposite form of Ji to reach their end result (I do find this sort of phenomenon happens frequently when I view an FP type's point of view). In the latter case, I often find myself at an impasse and unable to natively comprehend their viewpoint, trying instead to reformulate it in my own way, but always ending up with something that sounds systematic and "logical." I love it when one of my INFP friends tells me (paraphrased) "you're thinking too scientifically, it's not like that... you have to feel it." My first impression is "uh, riiight. what's that joint doing in your mouth?" but in part thanks to my knowledge of MBTI and the functions, I know better than to dismiss such things as hogwash.

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    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Another thought which came to me is that when I consider some associations I make which I find humorous (because they do not seem to directly relate or seem inappropriate for the context), I think they follow along *archetypal* associations.

    Case in point: I was discussing a problem at work today with a coworker, and while discussing the root cause of this problem, I held back the impulse to say, "Damn that database is a rotten pile of bones."
    Here's how I analyze that line of thinking-
    The database in question is part of a project that was poorly designed, IMHO, and at some point must be redesigned to consider our best practices which are standard for systems that operate in such mission-critical roles. Thus I see it as a "dying" object, something that works but is rotting away slowly--the root archetype of the "rotting corpse" I guess. This problem incident was a perfect example of why it's poorly designed; if it were designed correctly, such downtime would not have occurred as it would have a redundant pair system to take over its role.

    Likewise, a rotten pile of bones is a perfect symbol to represent that root archetype. Thus to my mind, this database, and a rotting pile of bones, appeared equivalent and just for fun. I suggested exposing that reference to my coworker. (I decided to hold back, as I didn't care to respond to the awkward look others around my coworker would give when they hear my twisted humor.)

    I guess the question is, is this Ne, or does it sound more like Ni?

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I will comment more later, but Ne to me seems very much like the Internet / World Wide Web in a sense, although with Ne it's like you are not sure if anything is connected to the end of the link you are exploring until you go there.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I will comment more later, but Ne to me seems very much like the Internet / World Wide Web in a sense, although with Ne it's like you are not sure if anything is connected to the end of the link you are exploring until you go there.
    Yeah, that's a great analogy which follows in line with the whole "field, totem pole, cobweb" visualization I gave above. From one point of view, you could say that reality itself is already intertwined with a fabric of interconnected meaning, and you discover the connections once you get there.

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    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    A spreading web or just building bridges between buildings (foundation/pillars of knowledge)... nice to see that somebody has also been thinking about Ne.

    you discover the connections once you get there
    Now what makes you feel so certain that there will be a connection at the very end? Again perhaps it's the difference with Ne vs Ni... Ni truly takes nothing for granted. I haven't figure out why that is so while Ne isn't like that.

    I was thinking of sticking this on a blog... but it'll fit well in this thread.

    Ni vs Ne

    What exactly is Ne? I know Ne is externally focused compared to Ni. That it attempts to find patterns in the environment. Ne is grounded to the outside world while Ni is grounded internally. Thus Ne processing is probably more rapid than Ni. For in order to utilize Ni, the question and related ideas must be internalize prior to thinking. Take the example of random brainstorming. A comparison between a skill list for a new character class (science geek) generated by an ENTP compared to myself (INFJ). The things he came up with (I'm assuming it's from Ne) is significantly more variable than mine (Ni). I believe the process of internalization can lead to restriction on brainstorming. For when I think of "skills suited for a geek", I am influenced by preexisting knowledge about other class skills. Thus the list I came up with is far tamer than him. However, also because of the internalization process, Ni can create complex internal models far better than Ne can. Now here is the part I am not too certain about. Does Ni do better because of what it is... or does an Ne dominant person simply loses interest beforehand due to the P nature?


    Ni builds upwards while Ne spreads laterally. One explodes while the other implodes... as in one can take an idea and generate something elaborate from that (Ni), while the other can gather relating ideas together into one (Ne). I'm not describing it very well am I? Ni develops ideas vertically due to the inherent nature of internalization. The internalized idea, the seed, acts as the foundation of further thoughts. Ne is not limited to such and therefore the idea can move more flexibly across different subjects. But why can't/doesn't Ne dive deeper besides just coming up with linked ideas? *sigh* I still can't wrap my head around what exactly is Ne. Let's take another approach. N & S are perceiving functions... N notice relationship and meaning of objects, while S notice the physical form and qualities of objects. Se is easy to understand, sensing the physical attributes of an object in front of you. Holding a pen in your hands and noting the textures and feel of the grip and handle. Si is experiencing emotion and senses evoked by physical or mental triggers. Say that pen in your hand makes you think about other pens you have seen. What a prototypical pen should look and feel like, and perhaps bring to mind of some more unusual pens you have seen. Intuitive perception is more difficult to come in grips with. By definition, N deals with the more intangible aspects of an object. Using the pen example, Ni seeks the meaning of the pen. What makes a pen a pen? And also interactions between a pen and other objects comes into mind. A pen is used to write on flat surfaces such as paper. However some pens have been engineered to be able to write on more unusual circumstances... underwater, conditions with zero gravity (the space pen). Ni enjoys finding relationships where none is apparent. How a pen is related to outer space... space pens, the shape of a pen can be liken to a rocket etc. Now Ne is the hard part. Traditional descriptions of Ne say it tries to picture the pen in different context. Ah! Therefore Ne keeps the perception of the "pen" constant and alter the environment it is subjected to, while Ni keeps different environments constant and alter the perception of the "pen". This seemingly reverse what people say grounding should be. Or perhaps not... rather grounding of the object/idea is external in Ne. The pen is the pen, you're not changing it. Versus internal grounding in Ni. The pen is simply a representation... or rather the physical pen invokes an internal malleable model of a pen. And since a representation is used, you are not constrained to the physical aspects of the pen at hand while in thought. Thus it allows you to make non-linear connections between concepts.

    My mind is still not overly satisfied with that description. Yet I have to remind myself that chances are all the functions have nuances which are not readily identifiable. It's just that I so seldomly use Se and Si that I only know of their most basic elementary properties, while the automatic use of both Ni and Ne has been so entrenched in me that I have difficulty distinguishing the two apart.

    Rewrapping the issue. Ni first converts the external idea into an internal representation. Then seek to assess relationships of that representation with other known ideas/concepts. Ne takes the external idea as is and imagine placing that more tangible form
    into known concepts or scenarios.

  7. #7
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Now what makes you feel so certain that there will be a connection at the very end? Again perhaps it's the difference with Ne vs Ni... Ni truly takes nothing for granted. I haven't figure out why that is so while Ne isn't like that.
    I did note in my definition that one is never ensured that something will be at the end. It could just be a dead end.

    But Ne is still giving you that little "shopping list" of ideas to bounce through, from one to the next, like skipping one's way across stones that lead across a lake. You don't know if you will reach the other side (or even where the other side will be, or WHAT it will be) until you reach it.

    I think with Ne, though, there is a sense that when you skip to that last stone and you realize you're not anywhere, you can still probably find another stone that will lead somewhere else, so you can bounce out of the dead end and continue on your merry way. So Ne never really has a "dead end" per se, it just is at core "exploration" without any predetermined destination in mind.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #8
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    My Ne is a bit like that, but a bit wilder. Quite a lot wilder. There aren't any totem poles... pretty much everything's shiftable, negotiable, and there aren't any balls of yarn, I just sorta drift without sail or anchor, just a hand on the rudder and my eyes closed, so as not to be distracted by the SIGHTS of things, from seeing the ESSENCES of them.

    I tell you what, it's sorta like a wild, open, misty ocean and I'm going along on it with no prior intentions or preconceptions or expectations. Just cruising along quite happily. Sometimes as I go, things fall onto the deck of my boat. I pick them up, give them the once-over, then toss them overboard, making a mental note of roughly where and when I was at the time I did that, so I can 'find' it again. Sometimes the things I drop overboard float, so when I go past something in the sea, I'll see that thing having been carried by the currents, bobbing on the surface next to this other thing. I'll see them both together, frown, rub my chin and then say to myself, "Yes, they can work together, they look good together - why not?"

    Sometimes the things that fall onto the deck are really cool, really useful, and I keep hold of them. Well, not in a possessive way... just in a way whereby I keep them close, any way I can find to do so that doesn't stop them from being freely what they are, because I don't want to break them. Broken, they're not the thing I wanted them to be.

    I'm basically responding to everything in the immediate, a bit like an SP, except rather than responding in a physical way to its physical properties, I'm responding to its essence, its meaning, sort of wrapping myself around it and in a way, hitching a ride with it, and always with an eye on what'll happen next, preparing the next move, and the next, and the next. What it was doesn't matter - it's what it is, and what it can be that I'm interested in.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  9. #9
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I did note in my definition that one is never ensured that something will be at the end. It could just be a dead end.

    So Ne never really has a "dead end" per se, it just is at core "exploration" without any predetermined destination in mind.

    My apologies for not seeing that. Hmmmm So back to the issue of Ne "random" exploration vs Ni "goal-oriented" one. It sounds extremely J vs P... as in Ni is a J function and Ne is a P one. Is that an inherent aspect of the functions?

    All NJs have dominant or auxillary Ni and all NPs have dominant or auxillary Ne. In Sensors... tertiary Ne or Ni is intermixed between Ps and Js, but it's so far down their lists that it'll be difficult to test. What do people think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    My apologies for not seeing that. Hmmmm So back to the issue of Ne "random" exploration vs Ni "goal-oriented" one. It sounds extremely J vs P... as in Ni is a J function and Ne is a P one. Is that an inherent aspect of the functions?

    All NJs have dominant or auxillary Ni and all NPs have dominant or auxillary Ne. In Sensors... tertiary Ne or Ni is intermixed between Ps and Js, but it's so far down their lists that it'll be difficult to test. What do people think?
    I know you weren't asking me, but since Ne is my thang, I'm answering anyway lol

    Though my Ne by itself is very wild and random, it's given direction by my Ti, and also I have quite strong Te. I've learned to sometimes, as it were, get my Ne to ask Ti and Te what they want it to look for! I certainly do have plans and goals - I live and breathe to plot, and to see those plots come to fruition!!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

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