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  1. #31
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    If your J/P preferences are borderline, then that might be why it's more fuzzy for you? I mean it might be why you skip between Ne and Ni more readily, or use them both at once, whilst remaining introverted? Might be interesting to find out whether, when you use Ne, it makes your F turn to Fi, and likewise using Ni, does it make Fe stronger? What do the different uses of your intuition do to your Feeling?
    Could be... could be... fuzzy I mean. It certainly can explain why I flip between Ni & Ne. Well I see Ni and Fe being two completely separate functions. They can interact, but I can split them apart. Lately I have been trying to develop my Ti. Sometimes I turn off Fe while I'm analyzing things. So I get Ni Ti working together... something that isn't normally described by function theories. I am uncertain if the use of Ne will make Fi stronger. I have difficulty sensing when I'm using Ne as oppose to Ni. Plus I rarely use Fi.


    I know that with me, when I become too suspicious of what's coming in from outside (dealing with untrustworthy or incompetent people for example), I tend to find my intuition going inward, looking within myself for answers instead of outside, and that in turn tends to make me more bossy and sorta directive ... creating a pretty good impression, temporarily, of an ENTJ.
    I'm trying to recall if something related has happened to me, and I couldn't seem to come up with anything. That doesn't sound like a very pleasant experience though. I suppose if you force me like that, I'll slip into "INTJ" mode. The only time I become P like is when I play... crazy "sugar-like hyperness" that could be like ENFP. Although I've never thought of it that way before.

  2. #32
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Could be... could be... fuzzy I mean. It certainly can explain why I flip between Ni & Ne. Well I see Ni and Fe being two completely separate functions. They can interact, but I can split them apart. Lately I have been trying to develop my Ti. Sometimes I turn off Fe while I'm analyzing things. So I get Ni Ti working together... something that isn't normally described by function theories. I am uncertain if the use of Ne will make Fi stronger. I have difficulty sensing when I'm using Ne as oppose to Ni.
    I've been trying to develop my Fi actually, and found it's difficult to use it when I'm in ENTJ mode. Even harder than it is usually, and it's usually just nowhere even in my universe! I don't find it an unpleasant experience to be ENTJ for a while, but I don't tend to think of things in terms of pleasantness or unpleasantness - I find it quite stimulating and fascinating actually, and I quite enjoy playing the "new game" with the new tactics, sorta like I'm driving a different vehicle down a familiar road, if you get what I mean?

    But you're right about getting the functions working together that don't tend to come paired in the literature! While I find that using Ni tends to push Ti into Te, I don't find it the other way around - I can use Ne and Te together, which is how I've run businesses for years, as well as Ne and Fe. It's when I introvert my perceiving functions that the judging one is always forced outwards, but not necessarily the other way round.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  3. #33
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    But you're right about getting the functions working together that don't tend to come paired in the literature! While I find that using Ni tends to push Ti into Te, I don't find it the other way around - I can use Ne and Te together, which is how I've run businesses for years, as well as Ne and Fe. It's when I introvert my perceiving functions that the judging one is always forced outwards, but not necessarily the other way round.
    The car analogy worked for me. It's fun to try driving something else, but I find it unnatural and thus tiring if I'm stick with it for too long. Curious how you find you can use Ne Te together but not Ni Ti. I suspect dominant function is so familiar to us that we can pair it with practically anything and get the two to work. It's turning it off that's the hard part. Question to you... how to do invert Ne into Ni?

  4. #34
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Curious how you find you can use Ne Te together but not Ni Ti. I suspect dominant function is so familiar to us that we can pair it with practically anything and get the two to work.
    Could be, though it could also be that being a strong E means my natural orientation is towards extraversion, so I find it easier to pair extraverted functions, or one E one I function, than to use two introverted ones at once. And vice versa with you.

    Question to you... how to do invert Ne into Ni?
    Basically do what I said before - stop trusting what 'providence' is showing me and look to what I know inside, already, as an anchor and a 'place' from which to venture out, so to speak. Like in the example of the guy talking to me who I can't trust, I switch off the extraverted perceiving so that my perception isn't being misled by false/insincere cues, and look within myself for the info I need to make my decision.

    By the way... is this thread derailed, anyone? I mean obviously I have trouble telling when things are considered irrelevant by other people since everything's potentially relevant to everything else when your dominant function is Ne!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  5. #35
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    You're making fine sense to me!

  6. #36
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Could be, though it could also be that being a strong E means my natural orientation is towards extraversion, so I find it easier to pair extraverted functions, or one E one I function, than to use two introverted ones at once.
    That makes sense too. It's worth investigating in another thread. Need more data lol.

    Basically do what I said before - stop trusting what 'providence' is showing me and look to what I know inside, already, as an anchor and a 'place' from which to venture out, so to speak.
    Okie dokie. So the reverse method for me would be to assume I know nothing and ask people random question. Barring them thinking I've gone nuts, perhaps even including those responses, I should get something out of them. Sounds good.

    By the way... is this thread derailed, anyone?
    I believe the thread has been officially derailed say 5+ exchanges back. But hey nobody complained yet. That's good enough for me.

  7. #37
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I believe the thread has been officially derailed say 5+ exchanges back. But hey nobody complained yet. That's good enough for me.
    I, for one, am pleased with the amount of derailment. Ne would prefer we go off and ride the tracks not yet constructed, no?

  8. #38
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Tovlo, now your post is making the Ni/Ne divide more fuzzy again for me. Ne is certainly more "out there" and undoubtedably Ni likes to visualize the interconnectiveness of everything. So you can think of it as Ne asking "What if the conditions changed?" whereas Ni asks "Can this work? Is that correct?" But what happens when you switch the questions asked? I somehow feel Ni can be used to answer "Ne questions". Hmmmm how to phrase this? [Ni thought experiment] I can go by the initial assumption that I have no Ne. In that case any connect the dots I make will arise from Ni. I can still just as easily do what you say Ne does by making random connections of things I see. Only in this case you need to invoke mental representation of various objects you see as you go along. Therefore Ni can mimic Ne... just not very efficiently. Would the reverse also work?
    Hmmm...a few thoughts after having read the remainder of this conversation:

    1. In function use I rank Ne, Ni, Fi, Fe, so a little Ne derailment is lovely to me as well. I was feeling a bit bad for talking Ni in an Ne thread, but if I've got a bunch of other rebels to make trouble with, then I'll keep going until reprimanded as well.

    2. Nightning, I also tend to test INFP more often than INFJ, but still believe myself INFJ. As my function use test results indicate I use with some ease the dominant and auxiliary functions of both INFP and INFJ. I do suspect this situation affects the clarity with which both Ne and Ni are experienced in someone who exhibits comfort with both introverted and extroverted N and F functions.

    3. I don't think that anyone has only Ni or Ne. My understanding is that people use all eight functions. It is rather a case of, at least in part, what they use most naturally, with the least energy taxation, and most consciously.

    4. I read with interest the explanation that Ne as well as Ni is finding patterns already existing, which does contradict a bit my exploratory differentiation of Ne and Ni posted earlier. Despite apparently employing and feeling some level of comfort with Ne, I admit freely that it is not my most natural engagement with intuition, so I defer to that correction.

    I wonder then if the distinction is more in the method of travel rather than the destination. I noted the different imagery that started this thread on Ne, with totem poles and string or hopping across ponds on lily pads. It was not imagery that had natural resonance with me, however elsewhere on this forum toonia recently discussed her imagery of intuition as a mountain you can only see from limited vantage points and some level of drive to explore many vantage points to gain the fullest possible experience of the mountain. That had immediate resonance with imagery I had developed within myself over the years to try to explain my perceptive sense.

    So perhaps Ni and Ne both have the travel destination of uncovering the patterns and connections already existing (sounds right to me). Ne perhaps sees the space to be journeyed as a wide field or ocean to be hopped across and explored through short little trips, one destination leading to the next without a specific plan, but having confidence that in the end all the little trips will fill out enough information to get a sense of the charted map of existing connections. Ni perhaps rather sees some central space to be traveled around (not necessarily sequentially), but always with the whole to be charted in mind, the goal to gather as much information from each limited vantage point as possible to eventually fill in as completely as possible the picture of how the land is laid out.

    The end result is ultimately similar, there is an understanding of the land already existing, but Ne hops from one connection to another charting as serendipity takes them, trusting that eventually the picture will emerge. Ni also allows serendipity to take it where it leads (what choice do we have?), but takes a more deliberate attitude, keeping always a focused eye on the whole they are trying to build a picture of?

    I don't know, just playing a bit with thoughts. I recognize that my perspective is naturally geared to my own expression of Ni (which I do think is expressed somewhat differently than other INFJ's perhaps because of the strength of Ne use in me) and that slant in perspective keeps me from being able to see either Ni or Ne without prejudice of my experience. So taking into consideration that slant, I'm just trying to throw out my experience and assimilation of what people here have said to try to help make some sense of it with you. Hope what I offered aids rather than making things more fuzzy, nightning. I will be curiously watching to see how this conversation develops.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  9. #39
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    FYI, toonia's description of the Ni experience that I felt so much resonance with. I don't want to misrepresent her expression or quote it without the context intact.

    As is described with Ni, my mind processes information by reconciling paradox. My first step when presented with information is to extract its core qualities and to devise these into the most meaningful, elegant polar opposites i can formulate. Seeing relationships between opposites and reconciling how they are related is the foundation of my thought. Once these continuum are formed, it allows for a sliding scale with which information can be processed in real time. Conclusions are never drawn absolutely, but information is placed along the many continuum as a sliding scale as more facts come in. Ideas are viewed from every possible angle, because the polarities can create various axes of thought into which the details form a multidimensional whole. (Before i get tangled up in my own head here, let me use a metaphor - Ni moment ) You can see a mountain from one view, but any single view of the mountain is a fragment, an incomplete truth. It would take nearly an eternity to have a complete comprehension of every angle and vantage point of the mountain and how it was formed. Looking comprehensively enough, the mountain has no single starting or ending point and so it is by its nature a slice of eternity. Still, the more context is comprehended, the more the given fragment can obtain its meaning.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  10. #40
    Senior Member Veneti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Making jokes is a human activity, we all do it, all types. It's the KINDS of jokes that people tell, and the sorts of things they laugh at, that can be more type specific. Most S's that I know have a more down to earth sense of humour - they like slapstick (doesn't everyone?) and are more likely to make crude jokes, sexist/racist ones etc, based on concrete observations. N humour tends to be more complex, based on observations of the essences of things, the meanings and patterns of things, which is why Sensors often don't get or appreciate N humour.

    I don't think I've ever known an N who didn't like the Simpsons, but I've known plenty of S's who don't. It seems that there are more N's who appreciate both kinds of humour than there are S's who appreciate N-style.

    I also disagree that the kind of humour Jen was talking about is all about T and not N. Perhaps it might be T that drives humour to be sometimes quite cutting or 'mean', perhaps at someone else's expense, thinking "they'll get over it", but I'm quite certain that the kind of zany, off-the-wall, surreal or even dark humour Jen is talking about is definately the arena of the N.



    No, I am a motormouth. I'm just the same in person... lol I can subdue myself though, if I must, for those of a timid nature
    Sorry, don't agree that jokes meet the definition within intuition.

    The act of developing the jokes can use iNtuitive processes, but I don't think you need to be iNtuitive to understand and laugh at them. Generally making someone laugh is about wrong footing them from their procedural thought process of what should logically be the next step or showing a perceptive angle.

    Anyway, "whatever" really as it is all semantics.

    If iNutuition is needed for jokes then Germany must be a very uNintuitive place...

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