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  1. #11
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I know you weren't asking me, but since Ne is my thang, I'm answering anyway lol

    Though my Ne by itself is very wild and random, it's given direction by my Ti, and also I have quite strong Te. I've learned to sometimes, as it were, get my Ne to ask Ti and Te what they want it to look for! I certainly do have plans and goals - I live and breathe to plot, and to see those plots come to fruition!!
    I think ENTP with dominant Ne would be great for this discussion. Consider yourself roped in :p

    Pulling Ti/Te Fi/Fe into the mix might make things complicated very quickly. So according to you, Ne by itself goes all over the place. Whereas Ni for me likes creating models. Using the boat example, Ne floats in its little boat and goes wherever thoughts take it. Ni is a boat with an anchor... tied by a stretchy cord but nonetheless tied down to one idea. The question here is... is your and mine judgments of Ni/Ne influenced by our J/P tendencies? Is it possible to let Ni go freely without an anchor and see where that takes me? If I do that, does Ni turn into Ne? So in the end are Ni and Ne the exact same thing? Just that the nature of the person forces it to resemble one or the other? Putting it in your perspective, can you make Ne work like Ni by giving it Ti/Te directives to not bounce around?

    I'm going all over the place lol

  2. #12
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Is it possible to let Ni go freely without an anchor and see where that takes me? If I do that, does Ni turn into Ne? So in the end are Ni and Ne the exact same thing? Just that the nature of the person forces it to resemble one or the other? Putting it in your perspective, can you make Ne work like Ni by giving it Ti/Te directives to not bounce around?

    I'm going all over the place lol
    I would say no, it doesn't make Ni into Ne just by 'letting go' with it. If it's still introverted - still focused on what you've already 'sensed' and understood, then it's still Ni. It would only become Ne if it became more interested in what else there was out there that you haven't already understood or experienced, that you might be able to include in your plans. Think of Ne and Ni as scouts, where Ne is the part where the scout is out looking for more information, not knowing what it might be until he meets it, and Ni is the part before the scout sets off and after he comes back, examining what he found, and thinking how and where to find things and go safely. In this respect I think Ne is more reckless, perhaps more fearless in the external world, where Ni might be the same but only in the inner world. The T/F functions with Ne tell it where to go and what to look for. With Ni, they ask it what it found and decide what to do with it.

    Sorta.... heheh. I'm making this up as I go...

    EDIT - I think I might be tempted to describe Ne and Ni as both having a very 'bring it on!' attitude towards discovery and exploration, but where Ne is oriented towards doing it externally, Ni does it internally. Like I'm forever pushing further and deeper into 'situations' and experimenting with the world (and people ) around me, whilst you'd be forever pushing further and deeper into the sorta 'mists' of your inner self and experimenting with that.
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  3. #13
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It would only become Ne if it became more interested in what else there was out there that you haven't already understood or experienced, that you might be able to include in your plans.
    Interesting... based on that line of thought Ni wouldn't be Ne. Once Ni internalized something, you have to connect it to other concepts... otherwise it'll crash. Therefore Ni can't just go out and find more new stuff without time to sit and digest the old. Ne as "scout mode"... I think that works. It's just darn inconvenient to have to go out and find data before you can stick it to work. Ah well... you win some and you lose some.

    Sudden flash of inspiration based on what you observed will be Ne. But ideas that come to you while in thought will be Ni. I'm still trying to wrap my head around whether I'm using Ni or Ne when I do different things. My results from that function test is surprisingly even for Ni and Ne. If you see something and thought of how to apply it into something else, then that's Ne. What about if you've unconsciously applied it? Is that still Ne? What about if you made a theoretical connection in your mind and then figured out a way to use it for something? Is that purely Ni, or Ni followed by Ne? I'm trying to figure out the boundaries between Ni/Ne and whether they might overlap.

  4. #14
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Well, one reason why ENTP's talk so much is because when an idea occurs to me from within (which might be Ni), I just HAVE to throw it out to 'the panel' (the world in general), to bounce it off things and see what it hits and what comes of it, so my Ne can then feast on the results. Then again it might not be Ni, because often it's something someone just said or something I looked at that made me suddenly think "Wow, what if...?" and again, I have to throw the thought outward, to watch it bounce like a game of pinball. Or if you like, kinda like I'm playing football, and I'm like the referee and the balls are ideas, I can just sit there and hold onto them, or I can plant it on the ground and let the teams kick it about and DO something with it. I've GOT to put it out on the line, I HAVE to see what will be made of it.

    This someties causes friction for ENxP's because when we see someone else expressing an idea we assume they're doing the same thing, and start kicking it about, only belatedly realising that they just wanted to sit and hug the 'ball', or have everyone say what a nice ball it is LOL

    I like to put things out into the field to test them, so to speak, to sorta plough, sow, grow and reap in super fast motion. My first instinct with anything is to throw it out and see what springs up; to bounce it and see what comes back. I think maybe Ni's first instinct is to turn it inward, mull it over within yourself and see what you can make of it.

    I just basically exist in a state of constant data gathering without even knowing it or doing it consciously most of the time. If I ever make a movement or say a word, it's usually been decided on after having considered dozens of external factors in a split second that I was only barely aware that I took in, but I did take them in, completely. I kinda think that's why all the best drivers I've known have been ENxP - having to concentrate on so much at once and just react instinctively to it all at high speeds, it's kinda what we're born to do.

    In a way we're doing the same thing - you're juggling lots of variables in your mind as you make your decisions. We're both doing it, but whilst you're doing it with what you already know, I'm doing it with stuff that's coming in right now, and what will come in, in a second, a minute, an hour or a year's time. I've learned as I've got older that I have to sometimes slow myself down and let Ti apply the brakes a little bit, because otherwise I forget to reference info that's currently coming in with stuff I already know, to reference it with prior experience, and I fail to take something into account because nothing in the external environment 'triggered' me into remembering it, or gave me the cue to 'use' it.

    EDIT
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightning
    Whereas Ni for me likes creating models. Using the boat example, Ne floats in its little boat and goes wherever thoughts take it. Ni is a boat with an anchor... tied by a stretchy cord but nonetheless tied down to one idea.
    Yes, this has been the main bone of contention that's caused friction between me and INxJ's all my life and especially when I've worked with them. It's quite simple - they're fixated on the idea and what they think it is/should be, based on the presumption that they alone must do it out of the materials they already have and their own ingenuity, but whilst I'm similarly enthralled by the idea, I'm more fixated on what it could be - and I refuse to accept that there isn't more equipment 'out there' that I could use to make this model, or that I can't somehow get my hands on it.

    Imagine the INxJ is sitting at a Lego table with a pile of bricks, wanting to make a lighthouse, but all the bricks are one shape and the lighthouse needs to be round. I immediately accept that a round shape can't be built with those bricks, so I go out in search of other kinds of bricks, while the INxJ sits doggedly trying to make a round tower out of rectangular bricks - it might be done if there were enough of them, but there aren't and I recognise that and accept it. I come back, pile a load of differently shaped bricks on the table and say, now we can get started. The INxJ gets mad and says while they've been working hard on the project I've just been wandering around aimlessly, and curses at me for all the 'mess' I've just made on the table. Eventually I calm them down by saying 'Just STFU and watch' and showing them how some of the bricks I've found can combine with the ones already there to make a perfectly round tower.

    Now if it's INFJ, they usually think that I think they're stupid, take it personally, accuse me of taking over the project and all kinds of other weird stuff. If they're INTJ, they pretend not to be impressed with what I did and say it could've been better, and insist that it could still have been done their way.

    I think that somewhere in this common interaction between those of us with dominant Ne and Ni, lies the key to the difference between the functions.

    I'm sure you've had similar experiences - I'd love to hear how they come across from your point of view - probably quite different to how I see it!
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  5. #15
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Fascinating... hmmm I think ENTP vs INFJ is a good for comparing Ne vs Ni, as auxiliary and tertiary functions are just reversed. Pinball, football both works. In order words you run real-life "live" experiments on ideas... while I run virtual ones in my head. I talk to myself a lot... well mostly type it out since it's easier to keep a record that way. I phrase questions for myself to answer. Or if there's somebody else there (one person only mind you...or Ni gets too much input and runs away) use their brains for answers. What can I say? I'm lazy. Well that's not exactly true, I like data from multiple perspectives. One question leads to another and another until Ni makes a connection. Very much like you watching what that ball you've thrown out does. Except in this case, the actor and observer are both played by me.

    We're both doing it, but whilst you're doing it with what you already know, I'm doing it with stuff that's coming in right now, and what will come in, in a second, a minute, an hour or a year's time.
    Interesting that you said that... does knowing what will come in the future relate to what you already know? Without info you can't make proper predictions. Or are those predictions based upon info immediately perceived that's unconsciously referenced to other things and thus you know what's going to happen? Ni has been described as "just knowing what the outcomes will be", there's no reason why Ne couldn't if you just base it on something more short-term.

    Lighthouse... I have to use legos huh? My first instinct was to use the rectangular bricks to make something approximately round... then I say can I break the pieces up? Failing to do that with the hard plastic, I would have probably grumble something about sticking this in a rendering program and blurring the edges. By the time you've came back with new bricks... I would either jump for joy over them... or snap at you for taking too long (while in my mind berating myself for not going to find them).

    I don't know of any ENFPs in real life (which is rather sad) but interactions with ENTPs tend to be a trifle dramatic. I'm not one that normally argue with people. But somehow put me in a room with an ENTP and other people around and you get debates that can get out of control. It seems like we argue for the sake of arguing. It's constructive debate... I get useful ideas afterwards, I think he does as well... but it just attracts more attention that I'm comfortable with. I suppose Ni needs space to think. It's a very deliberate process of altering different variables then mentally running the scenario to figure out what to do. When Ne from an ENTP randomly throws a "wild" variable in the mix, it's not a pretty sight. It's the blasted J syndrome I tell you. Good thing I'm only slightly J.

  6. #16

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    Ne=Inferring
    Ni=Foreseeing

    Berens In Dynamics of Personality Type uses apples to illustrate how each of the processes would process that input.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berens on Ne
    Why do you suppose we chose apples to use as stimulus for these activities? Brainstorm as many ideas as you can and make them as far fetched as possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Berens on Ni
    Think about apples. Allow yourself to quietly reflect on the way apples are symbolic of where you are in life right now. The quieter you get, the more likely some universal meaning will come to you. (Be patient. We don't get much training in this kind of process in our society)

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #17
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    I used to think I used Ne more naturally than Ni. As time has gone on and I've understood more, I've begun to realize how strongly I operate in an Ni way.

    I think because often Ne is described as the function making unrelated connections, it's missed that Ni is also about connections in the world, but engages with those connections in a different way. It seems if someone with Ni is very attuned to the connectedness of seemingly unrelated things then they must be using Ne in that exploration. I think now that Ne and Ni are both very much about exploring connections in the world, but they just approach those connections in different ways.

    It seems to me that Ne is more proactive. It asks, "What if?" and then takes the material it finds, actively making connections between the pieces, forming new webs of connections. Ni seems more passive. Ni seems to perceive an already existing interconnectedness of everything and quietly attempts to "see" clearly the shape of those connections.

    In a dot-to-dot metaphor my understanding of Ne is that it sees the page of dots and, ignoring any directive numbering, starts connecting the dots in all sorts of exploratory ways to see what kinds of pictures can be made. To my mind, Ni instead takes in the directive numbering, but recognizes it as a potentially flawed construct created by limited perspective and instead engages with the dots from many different angles trying to piece together enough perspectives to discern it's true form.

    Or something like that.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I think ENTP with dominant Ne would be great for this discussion. Consider yourself roped in :p
    Oh, now you asked for it.

    But it's wild, isn't it? I use my Ne a lot, and around most people in comparison that's the case... but sub is making my brain spin, I can't keep up with the ideas. I think there is a notable difference playing out -- I generally have brakes on everything, just enough to steer the conversation, and throw out any seemingly bad bounces, rather than ricocheting like a superball fired by a cannon into the inside of a phone booth.

    The only time as an introvert that I come close to sub's easy display of Ne is when I get with some other Ne people and we're joking with each other and trying to make people laugh. Then the Ti braking gets thrown out the window, somehow I manage to shut it down or make it subservient to the Ne for a short time; nothing is really evaluated except for connection purposes, we're just being dragged around by the ideas and analogies themselves.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #19
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Like Q, I get a real buzz out of pushing things as far as they can go, taking things to the brink of disaster and seeing the panic on everyone else's faces whilst I know I'm perfectly in control and that there's no real danger, and then right at the last minute when they're hating me most and thinking all is lost, it'll all come together and be better than ever before. Then I get to see their faces go through relief, amazement, incredulity and then inevitably, then come the lectures about how irresponsible I am and how such-and-such "could've" happened and don't I realise that this isn't a game and don't I realise how much damage could've been done?

    Sometimes I think it's funny, because I knew the whole time, like I say, that there was never any danger because I was using my Ne to be aware of so many things that they were not. But other times it annoys me because sometimes I'm not doing it for fun, and I am actually applying everything I've got to solving an impossible situation that simply cannot be solved by traditional methods, and I pull it off, but all I get is berated for my 'unorthodox' methods and lectured about the evils and dangers of straying from the path of orthodoxy. It's the SJ's that do that though, not NJ's - they tend to at least be able to manage a grudging respect in a kind of "Wow, he did it - I've no idea how he did it, but he did it, even though I thought for a minute there we were all gonners!"

    There was a point to all that - I'm wondering if what I do in the outside world all the time, things like that, then would it be logical to assume that INxJ's do it in their internal world? Do you push yourself and bring yourself to the edge of disaster, knowing you're in control and against the advice of others who tell you to know your limits etc, knowing that it'll all come out fine? Is this a working model for your idea of my experiments taking place in real time in the real world, whilst yours take place inside yourself, Nightning?

    EDIT

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    ...sub's easy display of Ne
    That's the politest way of describing a motormouth that I've ever heard!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  10. #20
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    There was a point to all that - I'm wondering if what I do in the outside world all the time, things like that, then would it be logical to assume that INxJ's do it in their internal world? ... Is this a working model for your idea of my experiments taking place in real time in the real world, whilst yours take place inside yourself, Nightning?
    Yes and no, there are many similarities but also differences. For one thing, what takes place in my head is not in real time, but rather I run the scenes in my head in loops segments at a time. Actually I think a lot of INxJs do it judging from how they express themselves. What I notice was that when they're trying to express themselves, there are numerous pauses in between, myself included. I can hazard a guess that they're running over phrases in their heads to find the best way of saying something. It's a very back and forth repetitive exercise.

    I'll give you an example. Say I have a question in my mind: what is the best way to handle such and such. First the question has to be internalize. I use that word, internalize, a lot because it's the best descriptor of what I do. The question as a whole is broken down into as many parts as possible. Internalizing is simply about bringing to the surface of your mind everything related to the question that you can think of. Very much like you are aware of all the external variables when you use Ne, but this is all internal. (My mind wants to wander... what I said there is the "applied" use of Ni, often times you get stray thoughts of related issues that doesn't relate exactly to the problem at hand. So depending on how pressing the problem is, I can choose to continue on a tangent or put on the breaks and reloop back to the original question. Like now.) After internalization [3rd thought jammed in: It also makes INxJs line of thought difficult to follow because when they loop back, it can occur at any place. SJs are particularly confused by this.], I juggle with all the variables. What happens if I toss one ball higher up in the air? What cascading effect will that action have? I run the different scenarios over in my head. Anytime I see something that doesn't work, I make adjustments and replay it. Therefore short of you doing something completely unexpected (i.e. unaccounted for by Ni), it's difficult to win against a INxJ at the his/her own game given there's no time pressure. I think that's why many INTJs like chess so much. They can pre-plan strategies and there's little completely random variables.

    All in all, Ne seems to be the more glamorous function. With Ni, everything is going on inside the mind such that it's difficult for other people to even catch a glimpse. Compounding on the fact that most INxJs I know have difficulties in fully expressing themselves, it leaves people thinking of us as black boxes. Black boxes that naturally becomes so appealing to ENXPs (probably ENTPs more than ENFPs) to poke at.

    Do you push yourself and bring yourself to the edge of disaster, knowing you're in control and against the advice of others who tell you to know your limits etc, knowing that it'll all come out fine?
    If by disaster you mean insanity... then perhaps I would. Although I find mental experiments on the whole are a lot tamer than yours. Partly because it's all happening in my mind which nobody else has access to. And therefore they can't exactly give advice, be it good or bad. The only person that can set limits would be myself. Also prior to letting Ni go, I have no idea on the outcomes, what is possible and what's not. So there's really no limits. Besides, there's no consequences to "bad responses"... you mess up your virtual experiment, you rerun it. =P It takes the excitement out of the game when you move it into your mind.

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