Ti/Te use and ideology

[Ghost of the dead horse]

It just popped into my mind how dominant Ti/Te users seem to have a different level of ideology behind their T use.

I'll give a bit background. Dominant/secondary Te users are J's, and Ti users are P's.

Js are often spoken of as having a goal. But, it seems to be the introverted function that brings the goal; Ni, Si for the Te users. Different kind of function use seems to attract criticism; using Te for Te's sake.

Ps are often considered as enjoying learning, practicing, doing their favorite tasks. Considering T's, they're using Ti. Although dominant Ti users have other goals than just intellectual exercises, they seem more happy doing just things like that compared to the Te user.

In both occasions I see it more advantageous - healthier perhaps - for the person's goal to come from the introverted function.​

As Te is rather tool-like, I'm seeing Te users gaining a basic understanding of most other functions on purely de-facto basis.

Te: "Consolation (Fi, Fe) is what's done to lessen one's negative thought after loss. "
Te: "Some traditions (Si, Fe) are observed to maintain one's relationships. "
Te: "Complex situations should be analyzed (Ti) to find what's the best thing to do about it."
Te: "If one is unemployed, he should seek a job (Se). Unemployment benefits shouldn't be too great, so people would feel inclined to work.(Te) "

On the other hand, Ti users seem to offen suggest new world order where the world would change to their liking.

Ti: "Consolation (Fi, Fe) would be unneeded if one didn't grief."
Ti: "Some traditions (Si, Fe) are an archaic remnant of the needs to bond in a primitive culture."
Ti: "Compared to analysis, just 'doing something' (Te) is short-sighted and tells of an unhealthy desire for control."
Ti: "It's not right to force (Te) people participate in the capitalistic, materialistic system (Se) by the increased living costs."

In other words, using Ti makes one wish the world would change, whereas using Te makes one use whatever's available to achieve the same goals.

Of course, Te is paired up with Si or Ni, which are stubborn functions, and a source of hard-headedness, or insight.

Ti is likewise paired up with Ne or Se, which are open, adaptable functions, using whatever's available to achieve the goals.

 

[Eric B]

That's a very interesting observation.
I can certainly testify to the "suggesting a new world order" thing, and often wondered whether than was Te/Fi, since it is described as "arranging the outer world" (according to "likes"). But then, you're not actually arranging the outer world, you're only doing it internally!

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

So it would seem. It's about making all of it consistent - if it isn't consistent and sensible in the outer world, one must provide an explanation for oneself to have true information in a consistent framework.

If Te users neglect to ponder the consistency of the outer world, that of which is observed, do they strive for consistency in doing, in their agenda, or some other thing?

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

After enough of deadly silence, I'll sum up my initial wall of text again:

Ti users often seem to wish everyone would be smart, thus avoiding most of the problems. In their ideal world, this would mostly involve the use of Ti.

Te users notice how people historically, factually use all kinds of functions, and wishing it away doesn't make it go away. Hence they take other people's use of Fi, Fe, Se, etc as a fact, and adjust accordingly.

Ti's wishful thinking is balanced by Ne/Se openmindedness, impulses and practicality, whereas Te's use as a possibly universal function is restricted by one's use of Ni and Si, which seek some kind of subjective closure.

I am suggesting this as an alternative to the notion that Te is bad and Ti is smart.

 

[simulatedworld]

Te/Ti is actually pretty simple.

"Should my impersonal, logical organizing drive be directed outwardly toward my surroundings (Te) or inwardly toward my private inner principles (Ti)?"

Te: Does it get the goal completed on schedule?
Ti: Is it logically consistent on paper?


I was recently mediating for an ENTP friend who:

A) Was really bugged that his ISTJ girlfriend wouldn't stop pushing plans and schedules and routines and such on his daily life, and
B) Was also really bugged that his ISTJ girlfriend wouldn't admit the total irrationality of her religious practice and give up her life-long faith.

Well, duh. What do you expect from Si+Te? He was holding her to unreasonable Ti standards based on his own proficiency in Ti/inability to see any perspective other than Ti as equally "valid" to his own. Si seeks long term stability, safety and predictability, while Te takes a directive goal-oriented approach when working with the outer world. "Is God rationally consistent?" isn't even worth asking to Te; it's just not of concern. "Does participating in religious ceremony give me a sense of community, safety and support?" (Si.) "If it accomplishes that goal, whether or not God literally exists is not even relevant." (Te.)

Ti, on the other hand, finds internal logical consistency in principle far more important than any externally measurable or verifiable goals, so ENTP is just baffled as to why his girlfriend would participate in something so clearly illogical! Again just Ti arrogance about its own perspective.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

That's a good example.

I'm thinking his Ne showed in; looking at all the possibilities in thinking, religious practice, deceit, sociological phenomena, doctrine, claims of different deities etc. he saw someone who had restricted her ideas too early.

On another note, perhaps I should stop talking about Ti- users, Te users and such, if I actually mean someone who doesn't use some other function x..

 

[simulatedworld]

Probably couldn't hurt.

 

[onemoretime]

Maybe not so much arrogance as a failure to incorporate all available data either due to lack of noticing or seeming irrelevancy - which does get us into trouble a lot.

 

[Eric B]

So it would seem. It's about making all of it consistent - if it isn't consistent and sensible in the outer world, one must provide an explanation for oneself to have true information in a consistent framework.

If Te users neglect to ponder the consistency of the outer world, that of which is observed, do they strive for consistency in doing, in their agenda, or some other thing?

Ti's wishful thinking is balanced by Ne/Se openmindedness, impulses and practicality, whereas Te's use as a possibly universal function is restricted by one's use of Ni and Si, which seek some kind of subjective closure.

Ti is the universal one (just like Fi), and that is why it deals in consistency (just like Fi's "congruence"). As shown on this page: Fundamental Nature of the MBTI, the extraverted perception is what expands the "matrix" of objects the introverted judgment deals with to a wide (i.e. universal) area. Introverted perception localizes the extraverted judgment's area. Hence, Te would not be so much about consistency, but rather local efficiency.

 

[simulatedworld]

^ I'd say it's local efficiency in the case of Te+Si, but in the case of Te+Ni it's more global efficiency across numerous local networks.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

That's a good link.

The page explained Te being used to order some localized area in our matrix of experience, and Ti being used to order and process a wide area. That's true in a sense that heavy Ti users seem to spend time thinking about anything, whereas Te isn't used to process and sort out everything, but just a specific areas of life.

I agree that Ti tends to organize knowledge for a consistent world view in a global fashion, and it is a universal function in that regard.

I'm claiming that a lot of activity in the world is dominated by strong local order, with inconsistencies to the global order. Acting in such local areas often requires one to see things from a local viewpoint, while working with many globally inconsistentent concepts and practices. Being process orientated, Te user might notice how the globally inconsistent practices might not end up hurting the end result, so it works, despite not being in line with the universal situation.

Low Te user might not understand - or accept - the information flow of an inconsistent system (or person) well enough to predict it's outcome. In that case, Te user might be more willing to create disorder and order at the same time. In this sense, I'm seeing Te as a potentially "universal" function, able to act in many fields by learning and creating processes in those areas. Perhaps this is behind the "ideology" of Ti I've noticed, when compared to Te.

 

[simulatedworld]

That's a good link.

The page explained Te being used to order some localized area in our matrix of experience, and Ti being used to order and process a wide area. That's true in a sense that heavy Ti users seem to spend time thinking about anything, whereas Te isn't used to process and sort out everything, but just a specific areas of life.

I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation, as I would chalk that NTP/NTJ difference more up to differences in Ne/Ni than in Te/Ti.

I agree that Ti tends to organize knowledge for a consistent world view in a global fashion, and it is a universal function in that regard.

Fair, but Fi does the same...it just considers its humanitarian standards equally "global" to Ti's logical standards, and thus objectively certain.

I'm claiming that a lot of activity in the world is dominated by strong local order, with inconsistencies to the global order. Acting in such local areas often requires one to see things from a local viewpoint, while working with many globally inconsistentent concepts and practices. Being process orientated, Te user might notice how the globally inconsistent practices might not end up hurting the end result, so it works, despite not being in line with the universal situation.

That's true, but note also that SJs are waaaaaay more common than NJs, so Te is going to be paired up with Si a lot more often than with Ni, and thus will be applied to a localized context more often simply due to strength in numbers...but it doesn't mean Te automatically operates that way in a vacuum.

Low Te user might not understand - or accept - the information flow of an inconsistent system (or person) well enough to predict it's outcome. In that case, Te user might be more willing to create disorder and order at the same time. In this sense, I'm seeing Te as a potentially "universal" function, able to act in many fields by learning and creating processes in those areas. Perhaps this is behind the "ideology" of Ti I've noticed, when compared to Te.

Yes, all functions are, in a way, potentially universal...but yes, Ti and Te share a similar ideology, just operating in different realms (the same can also be said of Ti and Fi...context is everything!)

 

[Eric B]

I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation, as I would chalk that NTP/NTJ difference more up to differences in Ne/Ni than in Te/Ti.

It's both. Ni/Ne are what establish the matrix area.

Fair, but Fi does the same...it just considers its humanitarian standards equally "global" to Ti's logical standards, and thus objectively certain.

Right. Both introverted judgments will be global, from the area established by the extraverted perception.

 

[Mondo]

In other words, using Ti makes one wish the world would change, whereas using Te makes one use whatever's available to achieve the same goals.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Te is about doing and is a more aggressive function by nature..

 

[Strawberrylover]

How about this?

Ti better makes use of deductive reasoning -- theory --> hypothesis --> observation --> confirmation

Te better makes use of inductive reasoning -- observation --> pattern --> tentative hypothesis --> theory

Speaking from experience as an ENFP with Te function, I've noticed that I use my thinking mostly for organizational purposes, both internally and externally. I don't recall my "new world order" ideas coming from Te very often, if at all. Those ideas seem to come from Ne-Fi: hunches about the external environment + internal value system based on feeling = ideas about what's new and illuminating

 

[simulatedworld]

^ Nope, that's a good guess but not actually how it lines up.

Your deductive vs. inductive reasoning analogy is actually a function of Sensing vs. iNtuition, and has little to nothing to do with Te/Ti.

Sensing tends to operate in deductive terms: either it definitely is or it definitely isn't, and if we aren't certain then we don't have any useful information because we lack concrete details.

iNtuition operates more in inductive terms: Rather than "yes/no", the question becomes, "How much?" or "To what degree?"

The example I like to give is:

An S statement: He has a .386 batting average. Clearly this is either definitely true or definitely untrue, and can be measured and proven or disproven factually. (Te would actually prefer this over most N statements.)

An N statement: He hits better than other batters. This question is much harder to answer in binary terms, since "other batters" isn't really clearly defined and we don't have any definite information...but nonetheless it can be a useful statement in the right context.

Note that the N statement doesn't actually know any specific information about that player, but only how he compares to other players. That's where induction comes in.

 

[sculpting]

How about this?

Ti better makes use of deductive reasoning -- theory --> hypothesis --> observation --> confirmation

Te better makes use of inductive reasoning -- observation --> pattern --> tentative hypothesis --> theory

Speaking from experience as an ENFP with Te function, I've noticed that I use my thinking mostly for organizational purposes, both internally and externally. I don't recall my "new world order" ideas coming from Te very often, if at all. Those ideas seem to come from Ne-Fi: hunches about the external environment + internal value system based on feeling = ideas about what's new and illuminating

Strawberry I am an board with you on some of this. SW I think NeTe can do some seriously odd shit. Tert Te allows us to apply Te to the Ne input. Ne funnels in the observations, makes the pattarns connect/form, then Te structures boxes around the patterns, and we build theories. Also Te seems to allow us to identify inconsistancies in the connectivity maps/patterns-better than an NeTi can do.

To implement the new world order Te would be useful.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

That's what's usually assumed, but I just see Ti users to wish for it more. Te users recognize the futility of affecting the people at large, so they just concentrate on what they can do.

Ti user knows they don't go killing people, even if they wished for the non-existence of a certain demographic group. Like said, it's just putting their own minds in order. And it ain't Te. Not necessarily, perhaps even not probably.

 

[Strawberrylover]

^ Nope, that's a good guess but not actually how it lines up.

Your deductive vs. inductive reasoning analogy is actually a function of Sensing vs. iNtuition, and has little to nothing to do with Te/Ti.

Sensing tends to operate in deductive terms: either it definitely is or it definitely isn't, and if we aren't certain then we don't have any useful information because we lack concrete details.

iNtuition operates more in inductive terms: Rather than "yes/no", the question becomes, "How much?" or "To what degree?"

I don't think I agree with that.

Sensing/intuition as irrational functions only tell us about a person's information gathering method, that is: Does this person leap at concrete details or grab at abstract concepts with regards to himself and his surroundings?

These irrational functions don't tell us about how that person defines the information gathered. That's the role of the rational functions Te/Ti/Fe/Fi.

I just threw out the inductive/deductive thing out there as a hunch. It seems to me that deductive reasoning is more linear -- Ti, whereas inductive reasoning synthesizes different ideas -- Te.

Ti seems more concerned with origin, questioning the essential meaning of things. Te seems more utilitarian and compromising, rooted more in the real world due to the extroversion.

 

[Poki]

Strawberry I am an board with you on some of this. SW I think NeTe can do some seriously odd shit. Tert Te allows us to apply Te to the Ne input. Ne funnels in the observations, makes the pattarns connect/form, then Te structures boxes around the patterns, and we build theories. Also Te seems to allow us to identify inconsistancies in the connectivity maps/patterns-better than an NeTi can do.

To implement the new world order Te would be useful.

Just wanted to add a few things, to me Te acts out the theories which I think is the odd shit. Then you are able to use Si and Fi to internally judge the theory. Thats why ENFP have the more lets try it and see what happens attitude. The other thing is that NeTe can identify better is because of the try it attitude and have a definitive answer. They dont rely so much on whats in there head.

Now for TiNi in an ISTP have a more lets figure this thing out mentality. We take in what we see and mentally try to tie it all together before we act on it.