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  1. #1
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Moved from Jen's blog

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Actually, I think we need to just to have some more "serious" MBTI discussion. Right now, it's very much just a large social natter forum in tone. (Which there is nothing wrong with... but just because of the name, if for no other reason, we should try to have some more serious discussions on MBTI and other theories.)
    I've been thinking that too, but many in power have already expressed that their primary goal is to create a social forum. I don't know if anyone else wants that. I know I don't want that, but I'm willing to accept (read: tolerate) a social forum since I already know all the people here. Ivy seems to interested in creating that FAQ so that new people can discuss things more intelligently, so maybe they aren't headed that way. I don't know, really.
    Last edited by Athenian200; 09-30-2007 at 10:27 AM. Reason: left out an important word

  2. #2
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Actually, I think we need to just to have some more "serious" MBTI discussion. Right now, it's very much just a large social natter forum in tone. (Which there is nothing wrong with... but just because of the name, if for no other reason, we should try to have some more serious discussions on MBTI and other theories.)
    I don't think that MBTI study and social natter are incompatible. Many people (particularly Is) feel more comfortable here than in real life, so they feel that they can truly express what they think and feel. Sometimes this comes out in random social conversations, but even these conversations can help us to realize people's motivations and thought processes.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  3. #3
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I don't think that MBTI study and social natter are incompatible. Many people (particularly Is) feel more comfortable here than in real life, so they feel that they can truly express what they think and feel. Sometimes this comes out in random social conversations, but even these conversations can help us to realize people's motivations and thought processes.
    I think the overall casual nature of the forum is nice, and I certainly do not think the *whole* forum should be more "serious."

    But I miss the more rigorous conversations about MBTI (especially with Rivercrow gone right now). In this particular subforum (MBTI and other personality theories), it would be nice to see some more serious posts discussion the theory, how it works, advances in the theory (Step II and Step III) -- serious examination of the theory, in other words -- that amounts to more than "What type do you think celebrity so-and-so is?"

    Most of our MBTI conversation is simply personal chit-chat and speculative in nature. Which is fine... but not exclusively. We already do this in almost every other area of MBTIc, why not have something a little more rigorous in nature?

    I think we've already missed out on some potentially interesting members who were more interested in the professional-quality MBTI conversation, and I'd like to see them stay and fill out that end of things, if possible.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  4. #4

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    I have to wonder, however, just how far the subject can be dissected. If you consider a couple of things: 1) how comfortable one becomes after they've known about their type for some time, and 2) criticisms levelled at MBTI from, say, the Socioncs camp - beyond information for newcomers, what exactly is there?

  5. #5
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Jen, can you give some specific topics that you think would be less speculative?

    I for one would like to see more discussions about archetypes of the functions, like Zhash's "INTJ and their Puer/Puella," shadow functions, and psychoanalysis.

    I notice that since we have so many INs here, most topics are about INs. People don't seem to be very curious about ENs (esp. ENTJs and ENFPs), ESs, STs, and SFs outside of complaining/advice-seeking. There's recently been some positive activity in the SJ and SPs subforums, which is good.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  6. #6
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundowning View Post
    I have to wonder, however, just how far the subject can be dissected. If you consider a couple of things: 1) how comfortable one becomes after they've known about their type for some time, and 2) criticisms levelled at MBTI from, say, the Socioncs camp - beyond information for newcomers, what exactly is there?
    Well, I think if you ever look at Rivercrow's style of posts, you'll see some of the more creative explorations of type. (For example, she launched into a wonderful comparison of S/N and T/F by presenting various scenarios and people could share their responses to things... and then the information can be compiled.)

    I think some of the recent dialogs exploring the functions and their impact on attitude/behavior is good (referencing the Lenore Thomson wiki in particular). There we are getting a better understanding of the functions themselves and how they interact with the other functions in a particular personality -- understanding the parts of the system and thus seeing the whole as the parts interact.

    But yes, I wouldn't mind some more critique of MBTI and its flaws/weaknesses. Are the function pairs truly sufficient to cover the bases? What is missing? How do we know these pairs are insufficient? What makes MBTI authoritative at all, at least as some claim it to be?

    Looking around at more of the professional MBTI sites, you can see what sort of study of the system is possible.

    I do not mind the lighter stuff either, it's fun and informative at times. And I've noticed a recent shift back into some more serious topics later, which I welcome. We should continue to cover a full range, from casual to more serious; things were just feeling very lopsided to me for quite a bit, which everything just being about everyone's personal casual experience/opinions, rather than exploring the topic more objectively, as a system outside of ourselves that might have some coherence on its own.


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I for one would like to see more discussions about archetypes of the functions, like Zhash's "INTJ and their Puer/Puella," shadow functions, and psychoanalysis.
    I missed Zhash's topic when it came up, but it sounds like it would be fascinating.

    I notice that since we have so many INs here, most topics are about INs. People don't seem to be very curious about ENs (esp. ENTJs and ENFPs), ESs, STs, and SFs outside of complaining/advice-seeking. There's recently been some positive activity in the SJ and SPs subforums, which is good.
    You're right. Could you suggest some "better" topics that would help explore Ex and Sx experiences in a way that had more depth? Some of it is inevitable bias, either in how we think or how we articulate our thoughts; but I would like to see more exploration of these things.

    Honestly, for myself, I am still learning to understand ENs. The best I generally do is parsing them as "extroverted" forms of myself, but I don't think that is correct or at least does not grasp the underlying differences at all. (I know it's hard for me even to truly understand extroverts in general, because I am such an introvert.)

    And I thinks Sx types are fascinating, and I tend to meet many more of them than the EN types, just in sheer volume of numbers, so that would always be a good exploration as well. What are their primary motivations? How does the S function play out, in conjunction with their T/F? Is there room for "new thought" in an Si person? Do and should they always look like someone who is rooted in a world that has now passed on, or can they look more progressive? And if so, why and how?

    Someone somewhere also mentioned offhand a number of ISFJ female types that he had dated. I found that enjoyable because I recognized some of the variations. ISFJs are not stodgy carebear types (especially in dress) across the board, sometimes they can and do look very different on the surface. What are the variations, and what is the connecting thread that seems to underly each one of them?

    I don't know. I wish I could contribute/spearhead more; realistically, I admit that my energy level is not very high due to deal with my personal circumstance(s), so I cannot invest as much as I would like. But I'm willing to do what I can to participate in those sorts of discussion.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #7
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I don't understand people talking about how the forum should be actively moved to a different direction. If you want such a thing, why on earth don't you just start talking about X already instead of asking other people for more discussion about X? That's how a forum works, isn't it?

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I don't understand people talking about how the forum should be actively moved to a different direction. If you want such a thing, why on earth don't you just start talking about X already instead of asking other people for more discussion about X? That's how a forum works, isn't it?
    Oh, stop being so logical and pragmatic.

    It came up in my blog, so I tossed it out here, and some people apparently wanted to discuss it further.

    Well, putting everything on the table might jolt some people into action. (Like I said, I know my energy reserves are low and I have trouble continually initiating these things right now.)

    Sometimes people just need a jolt or an invitation. I agree that over-discussing it seems pointless, once we get passed the basic concepts or discussion of the possibilities.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #9
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    What I think we need is just some more theories and categorizations to discuss. I'm going to be trying to post more such things, after I get some more ideas. I just hope people will be interested and respond.

    Although I have to say that the social interactions are probably important, if we allow ourselves to use them as a data source. Just watching a person's self-expression can give us clues about which functions they use, and how they use them. We need only figure out how they work. Although we need to be open to the idea that our previous methods of testing/categorization were insufficient, and that perhaps everyone is mistyped.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    But yes, I wouldn't mind some more critique of MBTI and its flaws/weaknesses. Are the function pairs truly sufficient to cover the bases? What is missing? How do we know these pairs are insufficient? What makes MBTI authoritative at all, at least as some claim it to be?
    It's difficult to have a forum that fosters both a socially pleasant atmosphere and criticism of the very thing that brought people together...

    Criticizing the MBTI and arguing about it with people in this forum is a bit like going to church to argue with people that God doesn't exist.

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