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  1. #21
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    I'm surprised to read many thinking of ENTJ as the pure rational. It's not an offended, it's more of a compliment for my type, but I'm not sure if I'm deserving. I'm quite rational with most everything, but I embrace the subjective, personal desire, personal will, wants, want-nots.

    Okay, my world view is perhaps less twisted to serve just my intentions than that of the most people, but in my book, INTP is the incarnation of rationality, sometimes to the point where it isn't serving him fully. OTOH, perhaps INTP is SP-like in their tendency to just enjoy doing their favorite activity.

    Or, is INTP NF-like? They seem to think it's the best way of life to engage in intelligent thought, and live their ideal of life. Could it be ENTJ who are the most SP-like of rationals? From what I see, they seem to embrace life quite fully, like ENTP.

    Tough problem.

    Here's my list, compiled from personal feelings on the subject, not according to any formula.

    SJ

    ESTJ: NT
    ISTJ: SJ
    ESFJ: NF
    ISFJ: SP


    SP

    ESTP: SJ
    ISTP: NT
    ESFP: SP
    ISFP: NF


    NF

    ENFP: SP
    ENFJ: SJ
    INFP: NF
    INFJ: NT


    NT

    ENTP: SP
    ENTJ: SJ
    INTP: NT
    INTJ: NF
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #22
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Please don't perceive me to be an NF. As much as i may dislike being ESFJ, Jesus christ, i don't want that label.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  3. #23
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    I'm surprised to read many thinking of ENTJ as the pure rational. It's not an offended, it's more of a compliment for my type, but I'm not sure if I'm deserving. I'm quite rational with most everything, but I embrace the subjective, personal desire, personal will, wants, want-nots.

    Okay, my world view is perhaps less twisted to serve just my intentions than that of the most people, but in my book, INTP is the incarnation of rationality, sometimes to the point where it isn't serving him fully. OTOH, perhaps INTP is SP-like in their tendency to just enjoy doing their favorite activity.
    You're going by Keirsey's name "Rational" and appear to be taking it literally. But I believe the tendency to be "rational" is just one aspect of the temperament. I imagine using Berens' term "Theorist" would pose the same problem. But Keirsey's old name, "Promethean" I believe would alleviate the confusion (Prometheus was the most "Choleric" of the four gods, though again, Keirsey made it Phlegmatic). In fact, I was thinking of subbing some of those names, as I feared "Artisan" was also possibly misleading.

    Could it be ENTJ who are the most SP-like of rationals? From what I see, they seem to embrace life quite fully, like ENTP.
    I imagine that might be because of the cognitive makeup. ENTJ is basically the closest to the ESFP (the "pure" Artisan), simply by reversing the "blocks" and swapping TeNi for SeFi.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  4. #24
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Here's my list, compiled from personal feelings on the subject, not according to any formula.

    SJ

    ESTJ: NT
    ISTJ: SJ
    ESFJ: NF
    ISFJ: SP



    SP

    ESTP: SJ
    ISTP: NT
    ESFP: SP
    ISFP: NF


    NF

    ENFP: SP
    ENFJ: SJ
    INFP: NF
    INFJ: NT


    NT

    ENTP: SP
    ENTJ: SJ
    INTP: NT
    INTJ: NF
    I was almost going to completely agree with this list until I saw the bolded. ISFJ as SP? Hell no.

    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    Please don't perceive me to be an NF. As much as i may dislike being ESFJ, Jesus christ, i don't want that label.
    Why?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Why?
    Its just the unhealthy ones i can't stand at all. NFP's. I am an observer so i watch and pay attention to what is being written/said and how its being written/said. All NF's are very good with articulating their point and thats a great thing i wish i could do. But stand back and watch an unhealthy one, its contradictory, when things are not going their way, it can get nasty and becomes a personal attack so obviously its hit a nerve. There is an undertone there, like manipulation. It is not pretty and i don't like it.
    NF's seem think they know how everyone feels. When they are not feeling good, you better be a mind reader.

    There are some really nice NF's on here. Some i am weary of and some i have no interest in talking to at all.
    I see NF + SF = not a good match.

    I am not trying to be nasty, just honest. In fact, i don't want to be around any unhealthy people .. Its just NF's out of all 4 types rattle me the most. Maybe thats because i can see the games being played.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  6. #26
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Well, that's the temperament label - or ESFJ ISFJ pair - that got most criticism from my list - I must say it was a hard one to think up, as much as it was hard to label either INTJ or ENTJ as SJ-like ;(

    Given that ESFJ's tertiary is theoretically Se and ISFJ's Si, perhaps ESFJ is more SP-like and ISFJ NF-like. It's a trouble to decide what "likeness" means though.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #27
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    One of the reasons why I have created this thread is because some parts/types are hard to solve.

  8. #28
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    Its just the unhealthy ones i can't stand at all. NFP's. I am an observer so i watch and pay attention to what is being written/said and how its being written/said. All NF's are very good with articulating their point and thats a great thing i wish i could do. But stand back and watch an unhealthy one, its contradictory, when things are not going their way, it can get nasty and becomes a personal attack so obviously its hit a nerve.
    Oh, I understand. I hate that too
    But I don't think it's a game at all or premeditated, it's just a natural reaction.

    I see NF + SF = not a good match.
    Not necessarily. It would depend on the NF type and SF type, and of course, the specific people involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    Given that ESFJ's tertiary is theoretically Se and ISFJ's Si, perhaps ESFJ is more SP-like and ISFJ NF-like. It's a trouble to decide what "likeness" means though.
    Hmmm?

  9. #29
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    All you have to do is swap the temperaments for the Interaction Styles, sing the Galen temperament matches.

    Here's the Key:
    Melancholic: SJ, IST/INJ
    Choleric: NT, EST/ENJ
    Sanguine: SP, ESF.ENP
    Phlegmatic (or Supine) NF, ISF/INP

    So we get a list close to one of the ones above, with a few differences:

    SJ

    ESTJ - NT
    ISTJ - SJ
    ESFJ - SP
    ISFJ - NF

    SP

    ESTP - NT
    ISTP - SJ

    ESFP - SP
    ISFP - NF

    NF

    ENFP - SP
    ENFJ - NT
    INFP - NF
    INFJ - SJ


    NT

    ENTP - SP
    ENTJ - NT
    INTP - NF
    INTJ - SJ


    This sounds right on to me.
    __________________


    I'M OUTTA HERE.

    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

    PEACE OUT!!!


  10. #30
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Oh, I understand. I hate that too
    But I don't think it's a game at all or premeditated, it's just a natural reaction.


    Not necessarily. It would depend on the NF type and SF type, and of course, the specific people involved.
    Your right, i know you need to have the right people together.

    I just like relations better with the NT's. There is no pretense bull, dripping with feelings etc.
    Maybe i will find a nice healthy NFp IRL. Until then, i don't think i am missing out on much.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

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