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  1. #51
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    *sigh*

    I guess I failed then to properly educate people....

    Ti is T applied internally. Te is T applied externally. They are one and the same.

    See the differences between E and I for your definitions if you still want them.
    Poor you. People are stubborn and believe what they want to believe.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Cypocalypse's Avatar
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    Ti = strategy
    Te = tactics

  3. #53
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkpo14 View Post
    what's the difference between Ti and Te?

    dont give me a description of each one.. i want to know what Extroverted/Introverted Functions mean..

    so- discuss..
    The agent.

  4. #54
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    Poor you. People are stubborn and believe what they want to believe.
    :steam:

    Bloomin F "logic"...

    :steam:

    (Depressingly true too...)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #55
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    Thanks Xander.

    Not precisely no. Personally I quite like to sit around and just discuss a theory. Even one that has no bearing on what I'm about to do like I dunno the various drawbacks of Freuds approach. My father would tire of such things quickly but would be enervated by the idea of tackling an organisation's processes.
    I would discuss the theory with you, see where you are going with it and try to figure out what your 'point' is in telling me this. Though I could continue to discuss something without applying it if it was something like 'art history' or design, pros and cons of emissions testing, etc. I think I'm more like your father. What type is he?

    Leading people? I've not much idea about that...
    I like to put together a committe to get something done. "I'm in charge, Bob you are doing ......, Jane, would you prefer to do X or Y? Great, now lets get this done asap. Let's meet again on the 24th."

    I believe getting involved like that is what's missing in my life at the moment.

  6. #56
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Merged the two Ti/Te threads going at the exact same time.

  7. #57
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Ti creates subjective conclusions. It doesn't analyze the object.

    It's by happenstance that reality matches the creations of Ti upon testing. It's not the favorite function of the best analysts or logicians, because its creations are only coincidentally in sync with reality.
    The whole "analyzing, categorizing, etc" definition is largely from Berens, and that does sometimes become a distraction from the root meaning of the function. You also hear "subjective models and frameworks", as well as "underlying frameworks" of external objects.
    What I think that is, is that because Ti works with a subjective conclusion or model, the analyzing is the result of trying to fit the object to that subjective model. Often when trying to remember something with multiple parts; I will look for parallels, or other logical groups to gather them into fewer, more easily memorable packets of data. The "ordering" or arranging is being done internally, in this case, and it sometimes can then be directed outward if I then make a table of it, or suggest the groupings to people. That would be Te backing up Ti, and I believe it is a common mistake of people seeing this process then label professing Ti types as Te users.

    I also love four-way mirror symmetries, which would include personality matrices. That's what drew me into the subject. In the ancient temperament model, it was expressed (E/I) vs. responsive (people/task) behavior, yielding four basic types, with adjacent types sharing something in common. Add in moderate scales, you can have five or more. When discovering MBTI, I saw that they were divided, however unofficially, into the Keirseyan groupings, with a matrix of two factors that seemed totally unrelated to the ancient ones. (S/N and Cooperative/Pragmatic). I then analyzed the whole thing to find out how both systems correspond, and I came up with something that seems to at least roughly work, and Neuroticism fit in as an added bonus. (Though some thought the process of matching the two systems was Te; what I was doing in the end was identifying a common framework).

    Because Ti delights in stuff like symmetries, users of it will be naturally drawn to stuff like personality matrices with a focus on the details and parts of it.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  8. #58
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    If what you say regarding the history of Ti is true, and I've no reason to doubt it, then it seems you claim that even the definition of Ti which you use is inconsistent. So it lacks a definition, which is precisely the problem.

    Most theorists since Myers have, for some reason, refused to challenge the titles, instead altering definitions so that Ti, in popular use, is no longer Ti as it was conceived. It's a mixture of Ti, Te, and Ni as Jung defined them, as far as I can tell. The system is beyond repair.

    MBTT function orders, when applied, whether using modern or classical definitions, do so poor a job of defining psyches that I've never seen anyone use the system to any advantage whatsoever. Disadvantage though? Hundreds of times.

    All that is often explained in the context of function use can be (and has been) better illustrated by analyzing individuals of type, and noting commonality. There is no need to take it a step further into abstraction and uselessness by forcing traits into functions which are at best accurately applied only in part.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Most theorists since Myers have, for some reason, refused to challenge the titles, instead altering definitions so that Ti, in popular use, is no longer Ti as it was conceived. It's a mixture of Ti, Te, and Ni as Jung defined them, as far as I can tell. The system is beyond repair.

    MBTT function orders, when applied, whether using modern or classical definitions, do so poor a job of defining psyches that I've never seen anyone use the system to any advantage whatsoever. Disadvantage though? Hundreds of times.
    And then you have Socionics. One's ignoring function, which is the opposite "domain" of their dominant function, can be used rather well by the individual, but they simply choose not to use it over their dominant.

    I actually do see what they're trying to get at. For example, my dad's also ENTJ and much more extroverted than I am. He seems to have less of a grasp of what would be referred to as "Ti concepts" than I and even jokingly derides them when I use them. But I still don't think that that should imply much separation between Ti and Te, just that he's more prone to use Thinking in the extraverted sense. They try to explain this by making the function ordering more complex rather than simplifying the functions themselves and probably arriving at the same conclusion.

    It seems like they try to combine the introverted and extroverted versions of the same function while still trying to keep them separate. It just makes things even more convoluted, which is why we even have questions like that which has been posed in the thread title. It would probably be more useful to just define Thinking on the whole and then perhaps talk about how it would be applied internally and externally. Rather than a strict "black-and-white" separation of the two functions, that allows an introversion/extraversion gradient.

    (Yeah, I think I'm arriving at the same conclusion that you did, Jack.)

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    (Yeah, I think I'm arriving at the same conclusion that you did, Jack.)
    LOL I noticed.

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