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  1. #51
    Junior Member look.to.the.sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Functions define the type in MBTI, how do they not? You're thinking bare basic MBTI. The functions also explain how the types function as a person, and it makes sense.

    I'm not dissing socionics, I love socionics. Just saying.
    How do you test for MBTI? By the functions? When you came to learn MBTI, how did you learn all the types? You learned by the qualities of the dichotomies, and meshed them together. After that, you'll move to the functions and they add in for you. I remember you talking about how you felt your personality reflected because you were exactly in the middle of a certain dichotomy (was it S/N?), and that had nothing to do with MBTI's functions, it had to do with the dichotomy descriptions.

    In order to learn Socionics at all, you HAVE to learn the functions, you can't go by the dichotomies like MBTI. Those who do will just end up with MBTI type descriptions... Which are not the same as Socionics ones.

    It's possible that I'm just come from an old MBTI perspective. I looked through MBTI rigorously until a couple years ago, it might be more of a thing to look into the functions. But all the message boards and forums I went to barely ever mentioned MBTI functions, and based the types off of the dictomoies.
    pursuing my true self

  2. #52
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    How do you test for MBTI? By the functions? When you came to learn MBTI, how did you learn all the types? You learned by the qualities of the dichotomies, and meshed them together. After that, you'll move to the functions and they add in for you. I remember you talking about how you felt your personality reflected because you were exactly in the middle of a certain dichotomy (was it S/N?), and that had nothing to do with MBTI's functions, it had to do with the dichotomy descriptions.

    In order to learn Socionics at all, you HAVE to learn the functions, you can't go by the dichotomies like MBTI. Those who do will just end up with MBTI type descriptions... Which are not the same as Socionics ones.
    I don't see how it's any different. In socionics you generally look at the basic dichotomy definitions to get an idea, then check out types. In MBTI you take a test to get a basic idea of the dichotomies, then check out types. They both have a function order that you follow that's accurate and unique to each type. As for my confusion, you could easily get confused like that in socionics, my S and N confusion was mainly due to the functions and how much I seemingly use the ISFP's yet I function like an intuitive would. I was looking at the issue from all angles, including that of the basic dichotomies. I don't understand how that wouldn't happen in socionics, in fact my confusion in socionics was cleared up by looking at the basic dichotomies.

    But you're right about the fact that you don't HAVE to learn the functions in MBTI. But why do you have to in socionics? Couldn't you just read a description and not care about what the functions mean? I know plenty of people that have done that... in fact I know someone who thinks that the functions in socionics are totally irrelevant and still accurately typed himself.

    It's possible that I'm just come from an old MBTI perspective. I looked through MBTI rigorously until a couple years ago, it might be more of a thing to look into the functions. But all the message boards and forums I went to barely ever mentioned MBTI functions, and based the types off of the dictomoies.
    That will do it for you. On here there is heavy function talk. If you were posting on similarminds or on the keirsey forums then yeah, they probably won't get as deep as we do here.

    Socionics and MBTI are very similar but aren't the same system (due to definitions and quirks in places). In both you can type yourself just from descriptions and not learn about functions, but you're missing out if you don't learn some function theory in my opinion.

    I think that people try to separate the two so vigorously that they fail to see the common ground, while they are really similar in my opinion. People who are strictly into socionics seem to have a hidden agenda (lol) against MBTI, and most MBTI users think that socionics is too complicated or that it's bullshit because of socionics.com (I don't blame them for that, that website is utter garbage).
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  3. #53
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    ISTP's are the exception. They exhibit all qualities typical to S's, yet they share a quality that gives them the impression of being something other than an S to me, namely that they can easily take in and analyze every thought I want to convey, no matter how abstract, provided they are not too long-winded. For this, I am so appreciative of the ISTP type - they really are the "other half" of a mind like mine, and they are so in a way that is utterly attractive. There really is something special about the ENFP/ISTP dynamic I have noticed. SP's really live (emphasis on live) an interesting way, and were it not for the ISTP's, their entire way of life would be lost on me.

    Tell me what you think
    First off, I somehow test as an ISTP as both MBTI and Socionics... I haven't actually spent the time figuring out why quite yet, but I relate very strongly to both profiles.

    But yes, I think there is a very interesting dynamic between an ENFP and ISTP. ISTPs can sometimes relate more to the rational NT temperament than the Artisan SP temperament, so we appear to be this weird in between... Although if you're paying especially close attention, you'd know we were definitely an S. This might be why you can relate to them more on an N level, which almost appears to be a necessity for ENFPs... I used to be involved with an ENFP romantically (we're still friends), and it seemed very natural. I took all the little far-out there thoughts he had and processed it in a way I'm used to... I can handle weirdness. And he seemed to appreciate my ability to seriously consider his ideas and churn out new perspectives. Eventually he kind of adopted me as someone to confide in all his thoughts, insecurities, doubts, etc, and who would help guide him on a more practical path (while still taking everything he said seriously). So I guess that's what I was for him... or at least that's how he communicated it. For me, he was an inspiration. He helped branch out my interest and at least made me aware of my infinitesimally small Fi. I was motivated to become more well-rounded instead of ONLY specializing in a few things, which I preferred (but only as a security, not because I didn't want to branch out). We kept each other on an even keel. And we had -fun.- All sorts of adventures, which seems crucial for both our beings. Anyways, long story short, we're both young and want to focus on our own goals/dreams/etc. We both understood that the best thing we could be for each other is friends for now. Neither of us wanted to be involved, because we both felt we needed to be on our own for a while. I think this line about duality relations about summed us up:
    Partners may find that they "discover themselves" through the dual relationship. By seeking out their true desires and natural tendencies and ignoring societal expectations, they actually enrich the relationship and gladden their partner. If a person has not enjoyed dual relations before, experiencing them for the first time will likely be a transformational experience.
    A few months ago we decided to be just friends, as I mentioned. I made a comment like "Yeah, it's just best that we're not together right now... let's give ourselves a few years to grow on our own." His response was "I think we are together though... Just not in a traditional sense." I remember reading a quote about dualities somewhere that said exactly that, but the quote above was the best I could find.

    Anyways, as for ENFPs non-romantically, my sister is an ENFP. Unfortunately, not the healthiest of ENFPs. We get along great when we just take things as they are and brush some stuff off, but sometimes we're reminded of long-held resentment. She takes a lot of the things I do offensively when it's never my intention to step on anyone's toes. And she lashes out in a way that really does hurt me. Her anger is something to fear! My mother and I both talk about how we're not always as real with her as we'd like, just because we're a little scared of the drama that could ensue. Anyways, when she's in her -good- stages, there's no one I would rather be with when I'm in my "Paint the town Red" mood.
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephMC939 View Post
    First off, I somehow test as an ISTP as both MBTI and Socionics... I haven't actually spent the time figuring out why quite yet, but I relate very strongly to both profiles.

    But yes, I think there is a very interesting dynamic between an ENFP and ISTP. ISTPs can sometimes relate more to the rational NT temperament than the Artisan SP temperament, so we appear to be this weird in between... Although if you're paying especially close attention, you'd know we were definitely an S. This might be why you can relate to them more on an N level, which almost appears to be a necessity for ENFPs... I used to be involved with an ENFP romantically (we're still friends), and it seemed very natural. I took all the little far-out there thoughts he had and processed it in a way I'm used to... I can handle weirdness. And he seemed to appreciate my ability to seriously consider his ideas and churn out new perspectives. Eventually he kind of adopted me as someone to confide in all his thoughts, insecurities, doubts, etc, and who would help guide him on a more practical path (while still taking everything he said seriously). So I guess that's what I was for him... or at least that's how he communicated it. For me, he was an inspiration. He helped branch out my interest and at least made me aware of my infinitesimally small Fi. I was motivated to become more well-rounded instead of ONLY specializing in a few things, which I preferred (but only as a security, not because I didn't want to branch out). We kept each other on an even keel. And we had -fun.- All sorts of adventures, which seems crucial for both our beings. Anyways, long story short, we're both young and want to focus on our own goals/dreams/etc. We both understood that the best thing we could be for each other is friends for now. Neither of us wanted to be involved, because we both felt we needed to be on our own for a while. I think this line about duality relations about summed us up:


    A few months ago we decided to be just friends, as I mentioned. I made a comment like "Yeah, it's just best that we're not together right now... let's give ourselves a few years to grow on our own." His response was "I think we are together though... Just not in a traditional sense." I remember reading a quote about dualities somewhere that said exactly that, but the quote above was the best I could find.

    Anyways, as for ENFPs non-romantically, my sister is an ENFP. Unfortunately, not the healthiest of ENFPs. We get along great when we just take things as they are and brush some stuff off, but sometimes we're reminded of long-held resentment. She takes a lot of the things I do offensively when it's never my intention to step on anyone's toes. And she lashes out in a way that really does hurt me. Her anger is something to fear! My mother and I both talk about how we're not always as real with her as we'd like, just because we're a little scared of the drama that could ensue. Anyways, when she's in her -good- stages, there's no one I would rather be with when I'm in my "Paint the town Red" mood.
    This is how it was between me and another ENFP. I am married so we stayed away from the romantic stage and she never said anything about the distance I kept because of the marriage, but the interactions were just like you described.

  5. #55
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    I must be an ENFp (in fact I am in socionics) because I think ISTps are pretty cool.

    If I were an INFp, ESTp would be would be my dual, and I would probably kill an ESTp.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew_Z View Post
    While the dichotomy is usually known as rational/irrational, it can also be known as judging/perceiving. (Jung himself described judging functions as "rational" and perceiving functions as "irrational.") Of course, it should be kept in mind that the socionics and MBTI "judging" and "perceiving" do not mean the same thing in both contexts. While they may coincide in certain situations, they are inherently NOT the same thing.

    That being said, I do acknowledge that socionics and MBTI types shouldn't be equally transmuted. MBTI =/= socionics. Ergo, while they may have their similarities, MBTI concepts should not be directly applied to socionics per se. (and vice versa) However, the purpose of this thread is more of an experiment to test if the concept of duality can carry over to MBTI, if even in a rough form. The purpose of my post which you have quoted is to inform the readers of this thread of what their MBTI "dual" would be, provided it existed.
    From what I understand in MBTI most types hate, or grossly misunderstand, their four-letter opposite.

  7. #57
    Senior Member laughingebony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by look.to.the.sky View Post
    How do you test for MBTI? By the functions? When you came to learn MBTI, how did you learn all the types? You learned by the qualities of the dichotomies, and meshed them together. After that, you'll move to the functions and they add in for you.
    Type is defined by the functions, not by the dichotomies.

    From Isabel Briggs Myers, herself...

    Quote Originally Posted by Myers, in "Gifts Differing"

    THE RESULTING SIXTEEN TYPES

    When the auxiliary process is taken into consideration, it splits each of Jung's types into two. Instead of merely the introverted thinker, there are the introverted thinker with sensing and the introverted thinker with intuition. Thus there are sixteen types in place of Jung's eight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myers, in "Gifts Differing"

    Of the sixteen specific types that result from the various combinations of the preferences, each is the product of its domintant process, extraverted or introverted as the case may be, and modified by the nature of its auxiliary.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    From what I understand in MBTI most types hate, or grossly misunderstand, their four-letter opposite.
    Grossly misunderstand how they handle things. And when each type becomes stressed they become a immature version of the other person and arguments, discussions, decisions, etc just dont go to well especially when you are arguing with an immature version of yourself.

    You really have to tuck your tail when an argument starts because the other person will tear you apart even when they are trying there hardest not to. It happens on both sides.

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    Smile i <3 my ISTP

    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post

    I will start by saying that while I am captivated by several types for different reasons, my dual relationships with ISTPs (of which one has been romantic) have been the most simple and natural. I'm an extreme N, and almost all S's, respectable communicators in their own merit, are incapable of meeting me on my own level for any extended period of time. I am no better at curbing my own style. As a result of our inability to communicate with eachother effectively, S's and I do not speak with eachother, and virtually all of my friends are N's. Such a small amount of what I actually say is useful in itself that anyone unwilling to take in my statements through a 'conceptual grid' becomes so bored with my ruminations and abstractions so quickly that building a complex relationship with them would be all but impossible.

    ISTP's are the exception. They exhibit all qualities typical to S's, yet they share a quality that gives them the impression of being something other than an S to me, namely that they can easily take in and analyze every thought I want to convey, no matter how abstract, provided they are not too long-winded. For this, I am so appreciative of the ISTP type - they really are the "other half" of a mind like mine, and they are so in a way that is utterly attractive. There really is something special about the ENFP/ISTP dynamic I have noticed. SP's really live (emphasis on live) an interesting way, and were it not for the ISTP's, their entire way of life would be lost on me.
    I'm an ENFP and this is my experience exactly. I am currently with my ISTP dual and could not be happier. I accidentally go off about people with "S" preferences sometimes because I am 110% N and cannot understand them. Or rather, I do understand them but I'm just continually annoyed by their lack of perspective. Anyway, I have found myself saying things to my ISTP like, "You are like, the perfect S."

  10. #60
    Senior Member MiasmaResonance's Avatar
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    ESFP men scare me with their..ESFPing.

    And they always turn out to be gay.
    "A spill at the plant increased the phosphates in the lake and produced a scum of algae so thick that the swamp smell filled the air, infiltrating the genteel mansions. Debutantes cried over the misfortune of coming out in a season everyone would remember for its bad smell."

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