Kneejerk Judgments as possible T/F indicators?

[Eric B]

Here's a possible clue to F or T preference we should look at. In daily annoyances, including in our interaction here, how do you tend to judge people? Or what is the kneejerk judgment you make? "Stupid", "dumb", "silly", etc.? Or is it more along the lines of ethics? Like maybe "inappropriate", "bad person", etc. I'm not even sure of kneejerk F judgments. Maybe they don't even come out like that. Or maybe it comes across as questioning the value/worth of things (rather than the people who make them like T tends to go after)?

I say kneejerk, because it is often hard to sort out T/F by conventional means, such as "how you make your decisions". It is often ambiguous. or both are even involved, and it is hard to tell what the actual preference is. However, in a more kneejerk response, your true primary mode of judgment is likely what comes up, almost unconsciously. You don't have time to consult the other processes.
Now, it can't be a too much stressed out reaction, as the more stressed out it is, the further down you will go in the processes. But a normal quick judgment will most likely reflect the true preference.

I had noticed I always tend to think what people do is stupid, dumb, etc. I don't usually think "bad" immoral, etc. (I did when a child, and stuff like cursing, or smoking/drinking, etc were said to be "bad" when kids did it, so then I saw such kids as "bad". When I grew up, I began, on my own thinking, developing a more relativistic morality until becoming Christian, and even then, I thought many were judging others too self-righteously, and when someone did something I didn't like; I would not label them "bad". When others did things that really disturbed me, like some teachings in other schisms of the church, which placed some sort of burden on us, I would always attack it with logical analysis).

So how do others tend to react? Do you find it matches your T/F preference? And those unsure of T/F, do you think this idea might work as a possible clue?

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

My most frequent kneejerk of other people is "boring." If it's boring, I don't care what else it is. That's the death sentence.


I'll sometimes kneejerk that someone is an "asshole," but I like assholes when they're interesting.


When I kneejerk my own behavior, however, it's usually "That was a stupid thing to do/say."

 

[JocktheMotie]

I think you're correct, the first reaction/judgment to any kind of information can be a good indicator of the T or F preference. The best way for me has been to consider the split as impersonal vs. personal comparisons to the self or the environment.

However, not to spin this thread in a direction you didn't intend, there are statements like BlahBlah's that make me wonder where the judgments are coming from. Is "interesting" or "boring" or "asshole" a T or F judgment and how do you tell the difference?

 

[JivinJeffJones]

I would've thought knee-jerk judgements would be more of an Ni/Ne indicator.

 

[JocktheMotie]

I would've thought knee-jerk judgements would be more of an Ni/Ne indicator.

It's not really the tendency to make them that he is talking about, but when you do make a judgment on information, it's your first reaction, ie, the first thing that comes to your mind.

Unless I misunderstood.

 

[Phantonym]

I don't label people that much but when I do, I usually tend to go with "thoughtless", "inconsiderate", "insensitive", "inapproriate" when I observe people doing something that irritates me. Or that this kind of behaviour is "wrong/ you should know better".
When it's something milder, I'll go with "Hmmm..." and hold off further jdgement.
Or I'll just go with "moron", when people act or say something really lacking in good judgement.

 

[Lady_X]

seems about right....my ex, an istj was constantly saying...what an idiot...or jerk or whatever other name...to the guy who cut in front of him in traffic...or was taking too long to go...or anybody doing something other than what he wanted....it never made sense to me. my reaction was always...oh damn...they're in a hurry...haha...or....how funny they're all zoned out and didn't notice the light change...and then his snap jugdements would piss me off.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

Still thinking about this, and my second most frequent judgment, after "boring" is "doesn't make sense." Third is definitely "inconsiderate."

 

[jenocyde]

My most frequent kneejerk of other people is "boring." If it's boring, I don't care what else it is. That's the death sentence.

I was like that when I was younger. But boring is fascinating to me now. I want to know why you are boring. Can you hear yourself speak, and if so, do you also bore yourself? That sort of thing.

I think you're correct, the first reaction/judgment to any kind of information can be a good indicator of the T or F preference. The best way for me has been to consider the split as impersonal vs. personal comparisons to the self or the environment.

Yeah, my judgments tend to be impersonal to the highest degree (not "you are stupid", but "that thing you said was stupid"). Because I am usually so far removed from people mentally, it's rare for me to get offended. I just get curious. When I think someone is an asshole, that usually isn't even a judgment - it's just an observation, if you can understand what I mean. So yeah, I think what Eric is talking about is a pretty good indicator.

 

[BlahBlahNounBlah]

I was like that when I was younger. But boring is fascinating to me now. I want to know why you are boring. Can you hear yourself speak, and if so, do you also bore yourself? That sort of thing.

When I think someone is an asshole, that usually isn't even a judgment - it's just an observation

Actually, this is a good point. "Asshole" sort of files into my brain for processing ... for me, it's not actually a judgment.

"Boring" is.

And I am extremely judgmental about people being inconsiderate. I don't mean rude/impolite ... I mean acting selfishly in a way that causes others actual harm.

 

[garbage]

Never thought about it before, but it usually boils down to "stupid"/"dumb"; even unethical positions mostly just come across to me as "retarded" ideas. But then I also immediately try to figure out why I think that--whether my judgment is sound or not.

I also know in my mind that the person isn't stupid, that they and I are the products of our respective environments, and I could also be completely wrong about just how stupid I think their behavior is.

 

[JocktheMotie]

When I think someone is an asshole, that usually isn't even a judgment it's just an observation, if you can understand what I mean. So yeah, I think what Eric is talking about is a pretty good indicator.

Right, but against what criteria is that observation being made is my question. When I think of someone as boring, uninteresting or interesting, an asshole, etc; am I making judgments according to my impersonal subjective principles [Ti] or are those coming from personal subjective principles [Fi]. This is in terms of my temperament, so for others it may be a Te vs Fe thing and easier to decipher.

 

[Asterion]

seems about right....my ex, an istj was constantly saying...what an idiot...or jerk or whatever other name...to the guy who cut in front of him in traffic...or was taking too long to go...or anybody doing something other than what he wanted....it never made sense to me. my reaction was always...oh damn...they're in a hurry...haha...or....how funny they're all zoned out and didn't notice the light change...and then his snap jugdements would piss me off.

Would that be P versus J there? The J makes a quick judgment based on what they observed, whereas the P sits back for a while with a more neutral kind of perspective. I tend to excuse peoples behavior in the same fashion, it's only when that same person keeps coming back and doing the same dumb thing again and again that I make any sort of judgment.

When working out the T/F axis, I find that I'm often associating T with male, F with female, but more often than not, I seem to be right. Sometimes there's an obvious female T, one that seems less caring and more aggressive. But some of the F guys I know are still somewhat masculine, an ESFP absolutely embellishes in it, but you can see his F side when he debates things.

 

[LostInNerSpace]

Kneejerk reactions don't materialize out of thin air. There has to be a larger context. The person has to be primed with past experiences. I was watching a movie one day. It was a horror movie. I was expect a really gorey violent scene, bloody, guts and screams. I was thinking I really don't want to watch what is coming next. It turned out to be one of the Scary movies--a spoof of the original horror. I was primed to expect the horror instead of the comedy.

 

[jenocyde]

Right, but against what criteria is that observation being made is my question. When I think of someone as boring, uninteresting or interesting, an asshole, etc; am I making judgments according to my impersonal subjective principles [Ti] or are those coming from personal subjective principles [Fi]. This is in terms of my temperament, so for others it may be a Te vs Fe thing and easier to decipher.

Well that's the whole point. Of course everything at the end of the day is subjective, even Te. The origin of any thought will have its roots, personally, in both T and F. And I guess the type of T or F depends on your preference, but the way it's manifested is what separates us.

My impartiality is probably more rooted in Ne. So my judgments aren't really judgments, just observations. But your judgments are most likely analyses, etc... But like all things, it's almost impossible to separate the functions because we don't really know what processes what. All we can say for sure is how we express ourselves. And my answer is usually a resounding "N/A".

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Inconsistencies stand out to me quite a bit. I work for consistency in myself and my thinking, emotions, etc. I look for patterns in the way other people think and can get a little rattled when something is introduced that is completely unexpected. It often takes me back to square one to rebuild my sense of the person from scratch in case my original model was somehow warped to not account for the conflicting information. I tend to focus on the anomaly until I can make sense of it, or just file it away in the "I guess people don't make sense" drawer. What I might call a knee-jerk reaction is to point out inconsistencies in whatever language would have been part of the original pattern.

When I encounter something negative, I don't usually think in terms of "dumb" or "bad person", but more "hmmm, where did that come from?" There are people I've known most of my life that I don't have solid conclusions about.

 

[Totenkindly]

Here's a possible clue to F or T preference we should look at. In daily annoyances, including in our interaction here, how do you tend to judge people? Or what is the kneejerk judgment you make? "Stupid", "dumb", "silly", etc.? Or is it more along the lines of ethics? Like maybe "inappropriate", "bad person", etc. I'm not even sure of kneejerk F judgments. Maybe they don't even come out like that. Or maybe it comes across as questioning the value/worth of things (rather than the people who make them like T tends to go after)?

As a primary Ji, I have realized that I constantly am making judgments (usually of the variety, "That made no sense" or "How stupid" or "What a jerk, that was entirely unfair of them" or "how short-sighted" or whatever). The deal though is that the judgment doesn't stick if the information changes; I don't hold onto positives or negatives, I am constantly updating both the short-term and long-term judgment.

I also don't hold it against people. I might assess someone as stupid, but in the essence of fairness I will try to treat them and their ideas the same as I would treat someone else. I do all this sort of instinctively.

I don't really go into the "moral" thing much unless the frame of reference is imposed by someone else -- usually a religious person who is judging the moral character of others and seems to be quite the hypocrite. Then I find myself thinking more "moral" terms like, "You're poison," "She's evil," or "Their heart is bad." Because I perceive that their intentions are self-centered rather than community/love-centered as they are pretending. But usually I notice I do not use that framework unless the other person imposes it first, and then I "react" to it.

Like Toonia says, I am very aware of inconsistencies -- I am constantly triangulating data in my head and I notice immediately things that don't match or go together.

With my being introverted, you'll usually not see my kneejerk reactions if I have one. They're all internalized, and they only get out if I'm doing it purposefully or if I'm very stressed.

 

[Eric B]

My most frequent kneejerk of other people is "boring." If it's boring, I don't care what else it is. That's the death sentence.

I'll sometimes kneejerk that someone is an "asshole," but I like assholes when they're interesting.

When I kneejerk my own behavior, however, it's usually "That was a stupid thing to do/say."

I think you're correct, the first reaction/judgment to any kind of information can be a good indicator of the T or F preference. The best way for me has been to consider the split as impersonal vs. personal comparisons to the self or the environment.

However, not to spin this thread in a direction you didn't intend, there are statements like BlahBlah's that make me wonder where the judgments are coming from. Is "interesting" or "boring" or "asshole" a T or F judgment and how do you tell the difference?

Still thinking about this, and my second most frequent judgment, after "boring" is "doesn't make sense." Third is definitely "inconsiderate."

I was like that when I was younger. But boring is fascinating to me now. I want to know why you are boring. Can you hear yourself speak, and if so, do you also bore yourself? That sort of thing.

Yeah, my judgments tend to be impersonal to the highest degree (not "you are stupid", but "that thing you said was stupid"). Because I am usually so far removed from people mentally, it's rare for me to get offended. I just get curious. When I think someone is an asshole, that usually isn't even a judgment - it's just an observation, if you can understand what I mean. So yeah, I think what Eric is talking about is a pretty good indicator.

It would make sense, that for ENTP's, somethigng like "boring" would come up first (especially when younger), as that's obviously coming from the Ne. It seems logic is next, as it develops, and then, the "inconsiderate" type judgments, as Fe is next. But between T and F, the T is coming first.

As a primary Ji, I have realized that I constantly am making judgments (usually of the variety, "That made no sense" or "How stupid" or "What a jerk, that was entirely unfair of them" or "how short-sighted" or whatever). The deal though is that the judgment doesn't stick if the information changes; I don't hold onto positives or negatives, I am constantly updating both the short-term and long-term judgment.

I also don't hold it against people. I might assess someone as stupid, but in the essence of fairness I will try to treat them and their ideas the same as I would treat someone else. I do all this sort of instinctively.

I don't really go into the "moral" thing much unless the frame of reference is imposed by someone else -- usually a religious person who is judging the moral character of others and seems to be quite the hypocrite. Then I find myself thinking more "moral" terms like, "You're poison," "She's evil," or "Their heart is bad." Because I perceive that their intentions are self-centered rather than community/love-centered as they are pretending. But usually I notice I do not use that framework unless the other person imposes it first, and then I "react" to it.

Like Toonia says, I am very aware of inconsistencies -- I am constantly triangulating data in my head and I notice immediately things that don't match or go together.

With my being introverted, you'll usually not see my kneejerk reactions if I have one. They're all internalized, and they only get out if I'm doing it purposefully or if I'm very stressed.

All of that is so much like me, except what I have tended to do with religous hypocrites and others imposing morality, is hit them back with their own medicine (You've already seen at least one of my Christian doctrine treatises, as we were just discussing!)

 

[wren]

when I think of my kneejerk reactions I'm reminded of just now, posting, where I feel I just have to say something, I have something to say and I'll type it out, get it out of my system, then carry on like usual.

there are other kinds of kneejerk reactions I do. the kind that have gotten me into the most trouble were between me and another person, I thought they said or felt or thought something against me, that I was this horrible entity or even a minor annoyance.

I've felt people were boring or stupid in their thoughts and actions, but I don't take it personally if I don't think it's directed to me. I judge stupidity in terms of fairness and morality, and human rights. I do take these kinds of injustices personally. But I'm not going to express myself similarly to when I know a slight was intended for me.

I feel I have a lot of common sense, maybe this is Te. I can bring out/highlight the obvious and this helps me decide when who and what I'm dealing with is moronic and lacking basic reasoning processes. But I sort of lump people together in this case. Very little Fe comes into play in this situation, just thinking (when I have this process I do use it to the best of my ability).

My feeling directs my attention to what I deem important though. Never do I believe my thinking leads me to what's important. Intuition is my absolute, feeling is my ray, and thought is the medium. I threw intuition in there because I'm not sure what to say about it and kneejerk. I'd say my intuition couldn't be kneejerk in the least. It has nothing of substance. Maybe I have no intuition to speak of? Could be.

 

[onemoretime]

T - "that". "That was silly/stupid/fun"
F - "he/she". "He/she is silly/stupid/fun"