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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's very insightful, mortabunt.

    I mean, who would have ever thought that the differences between Thinking and Feeling were the cause of most NT/NF disagreements? I mean, that's just absolutely mind-blowing, to think that differences between the T and F process could lead to disagreements.

    What brilliant insights are you going to come up with next? Are you going to invent the wheel? Point out that sliced bread doesn't have to be sliced?

    I'm just on the edge of my seat!

    P.S.

    Sorry about the sarcasm, I'm feeling bored, and you're an easy target.
    That's it: my F's already activated, and I"m feeling vicious!
    You're incredible, you understand me, you can actually sympathise. /sarcasm!

    P.S.: Don't make me go through your history. If you do, the link below will take you to what will happen to you:YouTube - Linkin Park - No More Sorrow [OFFICIAL MUSIC VIDEO]

  2. #52
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    Wow,
    This sounds farmilar. Sometimes I think SW, you take the "type thing" too seriously, and don't take into account the person or what is being written. Meerly an observation.
    What is being written in this thread has been repeated all over the board with you. It's a bit like a broken record. You've been offered the answers multiple times, but they seem unpalatable to you (sorry for inferring a feeling, but thems the breaks).
    You can stand screaming in the wilderness that no-one understands you, or you can try to understand others, and hope it's reciprocated (it usually is).
    You'll probably miss my point though.
    This time, I'm not going to engage you in a stupid condescension battle.

    I'd simply like to direct the collective attention of the thread to the above obvious attempts to provoke me into another counterproductive F vs. T argument. If what I've been learning from NFs recently is correct (which I am not entirely sure of), your post above seems littered with condescension and clear attempts to push my buttons in ways that you know will set me off, all the while setting it up so you can pretend you didn't do anything, and this awful big mean monster T just attacked you.

    The fact is neither of us is anywhere near fully aware of the extent to which s/he lacks the other's perspective. I think this thread is full of evidence that I'm trying to work on this, and I find it counterproductive and disrespectful that you'd show up here clearly trying to provoke an exaggerated T response, because you think that'd be hilarious. I'd be lying if I said I don't do the same thing to Fs sometimes, but this is me trying to learn not to.

    Suffice it to say I am gradually improving my understanding of how to work with the NF viewpoint, and that you're just as hopelessly mired in F bias as I am in T.

    So let's both work on the civility of our tones a bit, hm? See how Amargith is making a legitimate attempt to improve communication, instead of picking another unresolvable fight? I think that's a much more productive approach.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #53

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    Communication barriers abound for all manner of reasons. If I deem an individual (of any type) worthy, I will make sincere efforts to break down those barriers. I learn when it's best to take them at face value and when to probe for inconsistencies over time.

    If someone consistently encounters people who do not get to know them beyond those early stages of acquaintance and the misunderstandings/miscommunications/misconceptions abound, perhaps it is not their type that is the issue --but the individual.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  4. #54
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Communication barriers abound for all manner of reasons. If I deem an individual (of any type) worthy, I will make sincere efforts to break down those barriers. I learn when it's best to take them at face value and when to probe for inconsistencies over time.

    If someone consistently encounters people who do not get to know them beyond those early stages of acquaintance and the misunderstandings/miscommunications/misconceptions abound, perhaps it is not their type that is the issue --but the individual.
    I seem to grasp the Ni perspective on this far more easily than the Fi one.

    Maybe my Fi isn't as good as I thought. I'm a little confused now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    ...Yes. Exactly. There's taking MBTI seriously. And then there's taking MBTI seriously. People are more than the sum of their type.
    And then there's incorrect context leading to mistaken assumptions about how seriously people are taking MBTI.

    I don't even use MBTI; I just stole its labels for my own personal amalgamation of typology theory...just like half the people on this board.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #55
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    And then there's incorrect context leading to mistaken assumptions about how seriously people are taking MBTI.

    I don't even use MBTI; I just stole its labels for my own personal amalgamation of typology theory...just like half the people on this board.
    I just agree with Firey that you misuse MBTI (or typology, or what have you). I base that not only on this thread, but many of your other posts as well.

  6. #56
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Well, at least he's trying to get somewhere, and I don't see the harm in that. SW, the thing is that you are still struggling to let go of the T-bias at times, but I do very much enjoy that you are attempting and actually progressing in your insights of NFs. And yes, I realize this sounds condescending, but it's not meant that way, in fact, it's meant to really express that I appreciate your efforts. I probably come off the same way to you.

    The thing is that Pheonix and Lauren are probably (correct me if I'm wrong, girls) just a bit annoyed at the fact that you are still unaware of some of the bias you hold on to as true, and therefore aren't sure/hopeful that this debate is useful. I personally disagree

    Also, because you generalize using MBTI (as I am btw atm), it means you are at risk of ignoring the traits of individuals as there are indeed differences in the types. And you need to factor in those traits in order to be able to relate to a person and understand where they are coming from.

    On the other hand, your reply to Pheonix, though understandable, shows that you still view NFs as deliberately pushing your buttons and manipulating. Thats..not what it's about. And btw, that is in fact again intuiting those intentions/feelings/motivations we've talked about. Next time try asking what she's trying to say, explaining it further, before you jump to conclusions. I'm not setting the greatest example at this time, I know, but I did put in words as 'probably' and asked them to correct me if I was wrong, which, I hope, helps, if I were to be wrong in fact.

    I doubt that Phoenix really wants to start a yuhhuh-nuh uh-debate with you. From what I can tell..(and again, correct me if I'm wrong, Phoenix), she's probably just sceptical that you'll get it and is a bit aggrevated at the way you relate and have been relating and generalizing the flaws you perceive to be NF to everyone who is in fact NF

    I remain hopeful that you will get the hang of this and because you are in fact trying, you've already scored a lot of points with me, though I can understand the other NFs reaction on this too. Meanwhile, this is very useful to me too as it allows me a glimpse into what happens on your side and can help me disable that defensive knee-jerk that tends to rear its ugly head on occasion

    Question: Could it be useful to ask people who are in fact rather balanced in their type to step in here and buffer? What I mean is, since they've already been through this process, they have a different view but can still relate to what it was like? And maybe that way we can learn from them how to approach those that are still in the process of figuring it out?

    Coz let's face it, we can work this out now, but us understanding it, doesn't mean the problem gets solved..it just gets solved between us. And in that, Lauren and Phoenix have a valid point. It *has* been discussed at length and will keep being discussed because there will always be new people that still need to figure this out. And you will encounter those as well. So knowing how to approach them and as such not provoke them could go a long way as to getting along with them, I'd say.
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  7. #57
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlahBlahNounBlah View Post
    My problem is more that Fs sometimes don't understand it's bad to argue with me when they feel emotional. When I realize they aren't making sense, I'll try to end the discussion until they're feeling more calm, but that sometimes makes them freak out even more.


    What am I supposed to say to someone who is just blurting out irrational non sequiturs? They'll say "I didn't mean that. I was upset."


    Well then how about we wait until you can say what you actually mean before we try to communicate?
    Which is, of course, somehow interpreted as an attack on their character.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #58
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    We get frustrated at being misunderstood which makes us upset as often things are assumed that are not at all what we meant. The reason we're misunderstood is because we have a distinctly different communication style (way more personal) and honestly...coz we care more about the big picture behind our story and the intent than we do about specifying (to us) tiny details within it. Nonchalance and chaos are the result unfortunately.

    So when talking to us..plz if you think you might misunderstand, ask to specify, we'll gladly do that as we know we can sometimes be vague and not always precise in our wording. However, if you assume wrongly and we try to explain that you are in fact assuming wrongly which then again gets interpreted not the way we meant it, it just gets us frazzled and upset and feeling like we're on trial . At that point, it becomes hard for the other party to make sense of what we're babbling, coz clearly they already misunderstood us when we were still thinking rationally, and now that we're upset that situation isn't going to improve. Logical inconsistency is bound to happen at that point, which then gets us interrogated and second-guessed on motivation (lying, hidden motivations etc etc). At that point, you might as well hide for cover, as the frustration for having her integrity questionned in the NF(P) and the one she picked up from you as you get frustrated at the logical inaccuracy and your inability to gain more info from us to sort it out, is probably reaching critical mass...
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  9. #59
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Well, at least he's trying to get somewhere, and I don't see the harm in that. SW, the thing is that you are still struggling to let go of the T-bias at times, but I do very much enjoy that you are attempting and actually progressing in your insights of NFs. And yes, I realize this sounds condescending, but it's not meant that way, in fact, it's meant to really express that I appreciate your efforts. I probably come off the same way to you.
    Cool, and I appreciate your calm, accepting language and encouraging attitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The thing is that Pheonix and Lauren are probably (correct me if I'm wrong, girls) just a bit annoyed at the fact that you are still unaware of some of the bias you hold on to as true, and therefore aren't sure/hopeful that this debate is useful. I personally disagree
    Fair. I think all people are always a bit annoyed at each other for not grasping each other's subjective perceptions, which is the very source of all disagreements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Also, because you generalize using MBTI (as I am btw atm), it means you are at risk of ignoring the traits of individuals as there are indeed differences in the types. And you need to factor in those traits in order to be able to relate to a person and understand where they are coming from.
    I don't think it does because I don't interpret generalizations as specific critiques of every single individual member of a group. This is not meant to be hurtful, but NFs are also the temperament with the biggest reputation for complaining about being MBTI-categorized. I'm not the only person with a perception that NFs take type criticism more personally than other types, feeling that their personal individuality/freedom of expression is being threatened.

    "You're ENFP" doesn't mean "I guarantee that 100% of this arbitrary list of supposedly ENFP traits is true of you personally," it just means, "You seem to fit closer to this arbitrary list of traits I decided are called 'ENFP' a little better than any of the other fifteen."

    This doesn't mean I can't differentiate between different people within the same MBTI group. I'm simultaneously discussing NFs as a group, referring to things that they seem to show an overall propensity for on average, and then also discussing individual things with certain individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    On the other hand, your reply to Pheonix, though understandable, shows that you still view NFs as deliberately pushing your buttons and manipulating. Thats..not what it's about. And btw, that is in fact again intuiting those intentions/feelings/motivations we've talked about. Next time ask trt asking what she's trying to say, explaining it further, before you jump to conclusions. I'm not setting the greatest example at this time, I know, but I did put in words as 'probably' and asked them to correct me if I was wrong, which, I hope, helps, if I were to be wrong in fact.
    No, I think your response here is a result of mistaken context again, as in the above case.

    I don't "view NFs as deliberately pushing my buttons"; I view FireyPheonix as deliberately pushing my buttons in this one particular case, and using a characteristically NF method of doing it. That's an important distinction.

    I have a history with her and almost 100% of our posts to each other have been venomous. How am I supposed to interpret statements like "You'll probably miss my point though"? In your opinion, does her post sound condescending? You would understand this context better if you'd read the majority of my correspondence with this person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I doubt that Phoenix really wants to start a yuhhuh-nuh uh-debate with you. From what I can tell..(and again, correct me if I'm wrong, Phoenix), she's probably just sceptical that you'll get it and is a bit aggrevated at the way you relate and have been relating and generalizing the flaws you perceive to be NF to everyone who is in fact NF
    No, she's more just annoyed with what she perceives as unfair criticisms of NFs and looking for ways to see if she can make me look dumb to other Fs. Ts do it too.

    Of course, the brilliance in the F approach in this situation is that they're so much better at emotional language that they can easily "dodge" if someone does respond negatively and look like a deer in headlights: "GOSH, I don't understand AT ALL why this terrible person would just attack me at random!"

    I can't recall having seen you personally do this, but is it your contention that it's not a commonly utilized tactic here? (Unfortunately I would have to heavily disagree, were that the case.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I remain hopeful that you will get the hang of this and because you are in fact trying, you've already scored a lot of points with me, though I can understand the other NFs reaction on this too. Meanwhile, this is very useful to me too as it allows me a glimpse into what happens on your side and can help me disable that defensive knee-jerk that tends to rear its ugly head on occasion
    That defensive knee-jerk is pretty much what we both do to each other all the time. (Like in Fiery's post up there.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Question: Could it be useful to ask people who are in fact rather balanced in their type to step in here and buffer? What I mean is, since they've already been through this process, they have a different view but can still relate to what it was like? And maybe that way we can learn from them how to approach those that are still in the process of figuring it out?
    Yep, Jennifer has already assumed that role to some degree. You're being helpful too, so thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Coz let's face it, we can work this out now, but us understanding it, doesn't mean the problem gets solved..it just gets solved between us. And in that, Lauren and Phoenix have a valid point. It *has* been discussed at length and will keep being discussed because there will always be new people that still need to figure this out. And you will encounter those as well. So knowing how to approach them and as such not provoke them could go a long way as to getting along with them, I'd say.
    Yup, that's what I figured.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #60
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post

    I don't think it does because I don't interpret generalizations as specific critiques of every single individual member of a group. This is not meant to be hurtful, but NFs are also the temperament with the biggest reputation for complaining about being MBTI-categorized. I'm not the only person with a perception that NFs take type criticism more personally than other types, feeling that their personal individuality/freedom of expression is being threatened.

    "You're ENFP" doesn't mean "I guarantee that 100% of this arbitrary list of supposedly ENFP traits is true of you personally," it just means, "You seem to fit closer to this arbitrary list of traits I decided are called 'ENFP' a little better than any of the other fifteen."

    This doesn't mean I can't differentiate between different people within the same MBTI group. I'm simultaneously discussing NFs as a group, referring to things that they seem to show an overall propensity for on average, and then also discussing individual things with certain individuals.
    Well, I'll tell you why we're likely to be the biggest complainers about this, or at least I'll hypothesize on this. Yes we have a big thing for looking at individuals and not being generalized, but did you ever wonder why that is? Or why we appear that sensitive about it?

    It's for the same reason that you are sensitive about spelling, or correct use of grammar or correct expression of ideas. It's important to you in what you do. You go further in thinking out theories etc than we would ever do, so to us..there's no point in specializing in this.

    Now..let's look at the F-side. What's important to us? Understanding people. It's what we specialize at. And let's face it, that means we're generally better at it than you (yes I'm being arrogant ) Which also means that to you, MBTI is probably useful as a basis to categorize people on and deal with them, and that's it for you. We find that MBTI is very much lacking on this, as we go a lot deeper.

    So, plz, I know you didn't mean to generalize as much as we might have feared initially, but reread and consider what I said before. If you are to really understand and avoid the conflict with the NF before you at any given time, you need to invest just a little bit in understanding where the individual is coming from, and make sure you do not fall for the trap of: Oh, it's an ENFP, so that's why s/he does that, I get it. It's ok to do that..but...just to be sure, before you judge it that way, check. Coz they may just pleasantly surprise you. Consider it a tip from the 'specialists' in this field. (and yes, even NFs get tempted by taking the shortcut coz they're being lazy, and yes, it does yield a way higher probable chance of misjudging)

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    No, I think your response here is a result of mistaken context again, as in the above case.

    I don't "view NFs as deliberately pushing my buttons"; I view FireyPheonix as deliberately pushing my buttons in this one particular case, and using a characteristically NF method of doing it. That's an important distinction.

    I have a history with her and almost 100% of our posts to each other have been venomous. How am I supposed to interpret statements like "You'll probably miss my point though"? In your opinion, does her post sound condescending? You would understand this context better if you'd read the majority of my correspondence with this person.
    I will refrain from commenting on this as I think that's up to Phoenix to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    No, she's more just annoyed with what she perceives as unfair criticisms of NFs and looking for ways to see if she can make me look dumb to other Fs. Ts do it too.

    Of course, the brilliance in the F approach in this situation is that they're so much better at emotional language that they can easily "dodge" if someone does respond negatively and look like a deer in headlights: "GOSH, I don't understand AT ALL why this terrible person would just attack me at random!"

    I can't recall having seen you personally do this, but is it your contention that it's not a commonly utilized tactic here? (Unfortunately I would have to heavily disagree, were that the case.)
    It's a tactic I'll only employ when I'm desillusioned in the person because my previous encounters have yielded nothing but frustration and grief without being able to gain some bond or understanding with the person. It is my way of being cynical, basically. I never mean it maliciously though and often hope it to be a wake-up call for the person to take notice and maybe try a different approach. Though granted, part of it is passive-aggressiveness and venting since you lost hope and don't expect things to improve anyways. Suffice to say, I try to delay this moment as long as I can with anyone, though sometimes that isn't always the wisest choice, I admit as it leaves you emotionally vulnerable to that person. This tactic has the benefit of somewhat shielding you from them.

    I do not know if this is a common NF strategy, and that's why I typed the response from my pov instead of a general one. NFs, feel free to tell me your thoughts on this.

    On the other hand, what I stated initially..might still be applicable, just in the past, when you first started interacting with her. Again, this is for Phoenix to respond to though.
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